Vision: Running for Office

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Today, I’m interviewing 2 candidates running for office here in Western North Carolina. Jasmine Beach-Ferrara is a North Carolinian, Christian minister, founding director of the Campaign for Southern Equality (CSE), and mother of 3. Service and faith are the driving forces in her work, from teaching in prisons to founding an organization to advocate for LGBTQ equality across the Deep South. By showing up—especially in small towns—and telling the stories of families, Jasmine’s organization (CSE) helped win marriage equality in North Carolina and Mississippi. She is running to unseat Republican Madison Cawthorne for US Congress. 

Maggie Ullman was Asheville’s first Sustainability Director. Her leadership has resulted in over $5 million of new grant dollars to communities in the American South who work with their local government to address climate change equitably. She is a candidate for Asheville City Council.  

Together, both Maggie and Jasmine want to bring people together to incite change and protect what’s precious. 

In this episode, Maggie, Jasmine and I talk about why local elections are so important, how you can get involved, and how even the tax code is proof that representation matters. 

Also mentioned in today’s episode: 

• Jasmine’s background and vision 

• Maggie’s background and vision

• Why the tax code represents only the people who were in the room when it was passed

• Why local elections matter and what city government does 

• County level politics and what it includes 

• How priorities translate from local to national politics 

• How you can get involved in your local area to get candidates you care about elected

If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review and share it! 

Links:

Connect with Jasmine and Maggie: 

Jasmine’s website: https://www.jasmineforcongress.com/

Maggie’s website: https://www.maggie4avl.com/

Paddy Johnson: Real Talk on How to Succeed in the Arts

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Can you solve the art world’s problem’s for us in one sentence, Paddy?

“Ask for more.”

Paddy Johnson is a writer, educator and the founder of VVrkshop, an online platform designed to help artists and art professionals connect with other artists, get more shows, residencies and grants.  

In today’s episode, Paddy and I talk about some of the inherent problems facing professional artists today and why it’s so important to build a strong network and community when working as a career artist.  Paddy unlocks the real reason you should be sending a weekly newsletter, makes a startling confession, talks about her “24 hour fix,” and even makes me cry.

Also mentioned in today’s episode: 

• Conservatism in the art world 3:41

• Finding the right program for you as an artist 7:38

• Income inequality in the art world 12:00

• Why you should be asking for more money as an artist 16:36

• The importance of a network and community when working as an artist 22:01

• A good solution to art problems 26:30

• Confidence as an art professional 27:30

• The real key to why you should send out your weekly newsletter 31:00

• How to effectively network and build relationships 33:07

• Paddy’s confession 36:00

• VVrkshop and Netvvrk and the reason why Paddy started her programs 41:47

• The 24-hour fix 48:00

• Paddy makes me cry 49:00

If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review and share it.

Links:

W.A.G.E., Working Artists and the Greater Economy. 

Connect with Paddy: 

Paddy’s membership: https://www.vvrkshop.art/

Watch Paddy’s free class How to Get More Shows

Nicole Espaillat: A money story of debt, yoga, and buying a house.

Nicole Espaillat

has an art history degree, 10 years of experience working in the art world, and is now a full time yoga instructor who is going back to school for accounting. She is learning to do taxes at Sunlight Tax. Nicole generously agreed to share her personal money story: She went from $100,000 in debt and living on food stamps to owning her own home and getting her money under control. Now she is learning accounting, so that she can teach money skills to people like her.

Hannah: So Nicole, tell us the basics.

My pronouns are she/her, I’m based out of Baltimore, MD for the last four years.  I am working on finishing my degree in accounting--that’s my quarantine “baking bread” project. It’s a long haul project, but I went back to school officially during quarantine. I am an area manager for Core Power Yoga - that is my nine to five. I also teach yoga at a couple mom and pop local studios. I also do bookkeeping for an outspoken artist collective in Baltimore: NomuNomu.

I have been doing art since I was eighteen--my first job was in an art museum. It was the only thing I knew--the dysfunctional world of art. I moved to Baltimore after the Trump election. I was searching for a place that is more authentic. I ended up working at Hamiltonian Artists in DC. That’s half an art Foundation and half gallery--they award grants to ten artists for two years for mid-career/emerging artists after they graduate. They teach how to set up an exhibition , how to make a catalog, all the things. 

I met you because we hired you to give a Taxes for Artists talk at Hamiltonian. Of all the things we did for artists there, this was the one I felt was the most impactful. Everything you were saying--it blew my mind that these are the things you need to succeed in the world--and it feels like a byproduct of this system that makes finances and money difficult to grasp--as if it’s actually on purpose, and people are in the dark. I loved how you broke it down for everyone. I kept seeing all these light bulbs going off for people. I sent you an email after your talk and told you that I wanted to do what you do.

I ended up leaving Hamiltonian Artists to be a full time yoga teacher. At that point, I was able to live off of credit. Up until then, i was making money, and I was able to rack up credit card bills but pay them off. I didn’t feel the full burden of it all until I left my job making good money, and went to yoga, making $300/4400 every two weeks as a yoga teacher. I was making a little more than minimum wage, but my take home pay was about $200 a week. 

I had to get on Medicaid and food stamps. I had to live off the system. I have a degree, I was born in this country, I speak English--all these things are to my advantage. I grew up in a first generation household. We were poor, but we had what we needed. This was the first time in my life I was broke.  I didn’t know how I would eat. I would go to the grocery store and get rice and tuna. That was very very hard. 

I eventually got promoted to be the assistant at the yoga studio. My pay checks went from $350 every two weeks to $600 every two weeks. It was a little more, but even so, I couldn’t do anything. I was trapped. I couldn’t pay the interest on my credit cards. I was rock bottom financially. I was in $35,000-$40,000 of credit card debt. That was due to trying to keep up with the Joneses. Yoga teacher training is cost prohibitive--yoga teachers usually come from privilege. You can’t make that little money and pay that teacher training off.

On these credit cards, the interest was high--I had about five rotating cards. I maxed them out until I couldn’t pay them. Each card was $500-600 month in just interest payments. This didn’t include rent or car, etc. I got some help from my mother, but it was like, “you need to get another job.”

I was in a bad place financially. It took a huge toll on my mental health. I was getting up at 4 am, working all day, teaching all day. Yoga teachers make about $20 per class. I was making $10.75/hour, and this was before taxes were taken out. 

It took a huge toll on every part of my life--I couldn’t see my friends, and any bit of money I had went to pay off these credit cards. What finally shifted things was Covid. For the first time in my life I was able to get assistance on my bills because of relief help. I got into a debt management program. Not debt consolidation. This company literally just takes over your payments. I can’t use them/touch them or open new lines of credit. They are like, “you can’t do this on your own, we are going to do it.” They cut it all off. That was step one--getting the credit card under control. This was just before quarantine. The deal was $800/month in credit card payments. They handled distribution, negotiated all the credit down to like 4% from the 20%. My payment was now $800 per month instead of $3000. 

But I still wasn’t making a lot of money. I was picking up side gigs. I was selling my plasma, taking side gigs, getting two hours of sleep per night. 

Hannah: That sounds exhausting.

Quarantine happened. I was able to negotiate no rent payments. My building was not up to code, so my rent was covered. I was able to catch up with stimulus payments and grants. I wrote myself grants - I took that skill I have from my art world training. I got money for that. In March I got laid off from my job. I was able to collect unemployment. For the first time in a couple years, I was making 3-4 times more than I was making before. That saved my life--making more money.

That changed it all. At the end of the day, the only thing that was going to get me out of the hole was making more money.

I negotiated half a car payment. So I had a car payment of $600, credit card payment of $800, rent payment of $1000, and this is just covering transportation, home and debt. It doesn’t cover my student loan, consolidation loan, nothing. I was negative almost $100,000 in my life in October 2019, making $300 per week. And that’s with a college degree. 

I was talking to my mom like, “how do you get ahead in this country?” The only way I could do it was help. I got help from the government. It caught me back up.

I know that Covid was really hard for a lot of people. But for me that had nothing to my name, getting stimulus, unemployment, and having the companies I owed money to slightly sympathetic to my situation--I was able to slowly slowly catch up. Meanwhile we’re going through this social revolution,  the end of a crazy presidency, George Floyd, those conversations, and in the fitness world, there were conversations about equity issues there. I was able to go back to work for double the pay I had been making. They basically matched unemployment. [Because of conversations about equitable pay in the yoga/fitness industry].

This was a big pay bump--a liveable wage. Now I was getting $1000 per paycheck, up from $300 the year previous. All this debt, the debt management program, I get financial relief--it helped me breathe again. 

 And we have a good friend of the family, who has no kids or grandkids. I call her my fairy godmother. She decided she wanted to buy me a house. She gave me $100,000 to buy a house. I wasn’t allowed to use it to pay off debt, or anything else. I live in Baltimore, where that can buy you a place. I put in an offer on a small lovely condo.

When it rains it pours. With a lot of luck--I was lucky that in my field there was a revolution about pay and compensation.. At the end of last year, I got promoted to be the manager of it all--my company and the region. I now make a bigger salary than I had in DC. I was also able to get grants for going back to school. A lot of things fell into place. After a lot of hard work and suffering, and only with a huge support system.

Hannah: So where are you today?

In October 2015, I had $100,000 in debt. Today, I have $45/50,000 in debt plus the asset of a home. Now that I know what I know, I wish I didn’t have to go through those things. This is why I love Sunlight Tax. So much of what we know about money is programmed subconsciously. Now I can pick up bookkeeping work. That has also helped. My mental health is better. I can feed me and my dog--I can now go to the grocery store and buy what I need.

Hannah: So what do you tell your friends now?

I tell people don’t get into credit card debt. You can maybe make the minimum payment, but when you have a whole college degree of debt on your credit card, you are going to screw yourself over. You are not going to catch up.

I am so over financial institutions. I tell everyone get a credit union at least. I love that they pick up the phone. They have the best interest rates. It’s like a co-op - you have say and control in what they put their money into. That helps a lot.

Living above your means is so tempting, especially when you’re young, and you want to do the same thing your investment banker friends do. It doesn’t help either that I’m from Miami. Everyone there is in so much debt. The average income there is $35,000. They have a fancy car, designer shoes, go out to fancy meals, buy $600 vodka at the club. 

It’s insane how much I had to struggle just to get to this point right here. Still with debt. But hopefully in about a year, that will be gone.

It was all help. I finally got help. You can have universal income, you can have free healthcare. The government just chooses not to.

Any extra money I get goes to my credit cards. Then my student loans.

“Buy in bulk” doesn’t help when you don’t have the money to buy even one roll of toilet paper. It costs you so much money to be poor. A bank can tell you you can’t get a house because you can’t afford the $800 mortgage payment, but they turn around and expect you to pay $1600 in rent. They just don’t value people - if they did, this behavior doesn’t make sense.

Just to exist in the world, there is a cost to live. Just to live in a house. Doing taxes, you see how many deductions and exemptions and credits you can get from owning a house - but only if you can get from this point. No 28 year old is just buying a house.. Especially with a 20% down payment.

I’m frustrated with the way the world is. It has been so hard for me, I can’t even imagine how hard it is for people who don’t speak English, or have all these benefits.

I can’t believe how hard it is to apply for benefits. I nearly gave up because it felt impossible. I had to get signatures from 10 landlords. It was a very demoralizing/dehumanizing experience. You have to tell everyone around you that you’re applying for food stamps. It’s really hard. And I live in an easy state - Florida, I have friends who can’t even get the unemployment they are owed. For people who have never had it hard, they just don’t get it. If I had kids - I don’t even know what I would do.

I want more people like me to be in the art world. This is layered. I love the art world, but it is so exclusive. A person of means, a person who can afford to have internships and make their way in that art history art pipeline. I want to be one of the voices to say “no, these other people should also be valued.” The things that add joy and value to your life aren't investment banking. I want people who bring humanity back into the world to be valued and compensated just as much as a money-maker (stock broker, hedge fund manager, etc). I want people in these roles--health and fitness, art--to have money knowledge so they can keep doing these things in the world, so they don’t have to leave. To give them the tools that rich white people use who have money to pay people to tell them what to do. I want to do that for people who don't have the background or the pedigree. I want to tell my friend, “don’t put that education on a credit card.” Teaching people how things snowball, and you have to live within your means. Right now, I don’t even need a budget - I pay my bills, then what is left over is what I have. But one day, I want to save more. The financial help I read in magazines doesn’t help you if you don’t have money to begin with. 

There is a huge amount of the population that lives like that--a dog chasing its own tail. But how do you get more money? How do you get it in your hands, and then what do you do with it? And how is it taxed?

I feel like I can speak to those people who are like me.

Why the PPP Loan is Good for Artists

Paddy Johnson of of VVrkshop and Hannah Cole of Sunlight Tax

This Q & A between Paddy Johnson of VVrkshop and ArtFCity and tax expert Hannah Cole on the Payroll Protection Program loan (PPP loan) explains how it can help artists. You don’t have to run an incorporated business to qualify. This money is a stimulus for you. ⁠⁠

Paddy and Hannah talk about loan terms, and our take home message: this is a forgivable loan that could help you. For many people, that could mean more time in the studio, a new body of work, or simply some extra peace of mind. Read the Q & A. Look into the loan if you haven't already. It's an easier application than almost any grant you'll apply for and might be more money too. ⁠⁠

PJ: What types of professions in the arts qualify for a PPP loan? 

HC: Absolutely everyone. There is no restriction.

If you are in a food or hospitality profession (look at the 6-digit code, called a NAICS code, in box B on the upper right corner of your Schedule C) with a NAICS code beginning with the digits “72” then you get special access to a bigger PPP loan (3.5 times your monthly income versus 2.5 times your monthly income for everyone else. This was meant to help the ailing restaurant and hospitality industries). But the PPP loan is meant for all professions.

PJ: Do I need to be running payroll?

HC: No. You don’t. This issue is confusing people. You are eligible for a PPP forgivable loan as long as you have “gross income” on line 7 of your Schedule C. As of the changes made in President Biden’s recent stimulus bill, you don’t even need to have a profit. 

PJ: Is the PPP loan forgivable? 

HC: Yes! In fact, it is designed to be 100% forgivable in most circumstances. This means that the loans are designed to turn into grants for almost everyone, so long as you spend the money on eligible expenses. Good news: this is really easy to do as a sole proprietor.

PJ: How much money are artists eligible for?

HC: You can receive up to 20.83% of your annual Gross Income. Loans are capped at $20,833 for sole proprietors without employees.

PJ: Can artists qualify for a PPP loan if they are receiving unemployment checks? 

HC: They can qualify. But receiving PPP money will likely reduce or eliminate their unemployment payments. You can re-apply for unemployment once your PPP money has run out, though. If you are depending on unemployment, you might not be a good fit for a PPP loan. Individual cases may vary, but if you made less than $25,000 on your Schedule C (“gross income” on line 7), then you are probably better off sticking to unemployment.

PJ: What is the difference between gross income and net income? In January loans were given out only for net. 

HC: The rules on this have changed. The current rule is that you may apply with “gross income” (line 7 of your Schedule C), instead of “net income.” Gross income is your income before taking out expenses. Net income is your profit after you subtract expenses. This change is great news because it gets you a bigger loan amount. 

PJ: Where can artists get a PPP loan? Are there better places to get PPP loans? (I had a poor experience with Chase and ultimately went through Newtek, which is an SBA lender.)

HC: You apply for a PPP loan through your bank. The big banks have demonstrably favored larger businesses and white men in this process. For this reason, Congress gave special access to funding to community-based lenders such as local credit unions. That’s because these institutions have a better history of supporting women-owned and BIPOC-owned businesses. There are also so-called “Fintech” companies that have been pretty helpful and streamlined getting PPP loan applications processed for Schedule C-filers, such as PayPal, QuickBooks, and Square. 

PJ: Where can artists find their Schedule C? Relatedly, there are five million places on a tax return that note gross and net income. How do artists know where to find the right one? 

HC: If you have freelance income, you have a Schedule C. Schedule C is part of your personal income tax return. It says Schedule C “Profit or Loss from Business Activities” at the top. Gross income is on line 7 of your Schedule C.

PJ: Do artists who have made more money in 2020 than 2019 qualify for a PPP loan? 

HC: Yes, they qualify if this is their first PPP loan. So long as you had gross income (line 7 on your Schedule C) in either 2019 or 2020, you are eligible. You don’t even need to have had a profit. If you are applying for a second round of PPP funding (i.e., you already got a first PPP loan), then you need to show that your income dropped by at least 25% in 2020 vs 2019. So the scenario in this question would then disqualify you from a second loan.

PJ: Is the loan taxable? 

HC: Nope! Loans aren't taxable as income (because they aren't income - you have to pay them back). And the bills have made it clear that the forgiven PPP loans, aka grants, are not to be included in taxable income. Normally a forgiven loan would be taxable income, but the PPP is special.

PJ: When can artists apply for loan forgiveness? 

HC: You apply once your funds are used up. You can apply for forgiveness any time between using up your funds and the maturity date of the loan. If you don’t apply for forgiveness by 10 months after the last day of your covered period, then you will need to begin paying it back.

PJ: How do artists track their spending so they don’t owe money they can’t pay back to the government? 

HC: I recommend that you open a separate bank account and deposit your PPP loan into that. That way, you transfer funds to your personal account as “owner compensation” at the approved amounts, and it easily documents these transfers for forgiveness.

PJ: How do artists calculate the approved payment amounts? 

HC: Presuming your loan was for the right amount, to begin with, making 10 equal transfers of 1/10th the loan amount from your specially-opened new PPP bank account into your personal account should do it. But please check with your bank for their latest guidance. 

PJ: Can the terms of loan forgiveness change? 

HC: I suppose it is possible. There have been a few rule changes so far, but generally, they have trended towards simplifying the process for freelancers, giving them better access to funding, and created more generous loans. 

PJ: Should artists apply for a PPP loan? 

HC: Yes. Except for people with small amounts of freelance income who are depending on unemployment. For most others, it's a great idea and will help you.

Money Management for Creative Professionals

Nerissa Street of Ten Thousand Women Ten Thousand Stages Podcast interviews art-centric tax expert Hannah Cole about her influences as an artist and as a tax expert for creative freelancers. This interview is available as both a podcast and a video, so you can choose the medium that you prefer.

Hannah Cole and Nerissa Street of Ten Thousand Women Ten Thousand Stages podcast

What do creative people need to know about the differences in tax laws between gig workers and employees? How much should you be saving in self-employment tax? How has the landscape changed in the current economy?

Hannah had two messages growing up: "Do what makes you happy!" and "Art won't make any money." How did that and her other experiences as an artist help her translate design needs into practical commercial benefit? They also talk about the stimulus bills and payments, deductions, and what you can look forward to in July if you have children.

Who benefits from the latest tax legislation? What has changed with business meal deductions this year?

You can either listen to the hour-long podcast here, or view it below via YouTube:

Startist Interview: Profit Motive, Marketing, and Tax Tips for Artists

Is your art a business or a hobby?

Hannah talks with Laura Griffin and Nikki May of Startist Society about her roots as an artist and about establishing a profit motive for your art business. She chats about empowerment for artists and how she got started in accounting after some bad experiences she had as an artist.

What should you use to track expenses? How and what expenses are deductible? Can donated artwork be deducted? Do I need to collect sales tax? Find out the answers in this podcast interview relevant to creative freelancers in the US.

Hannah discusses what things in nature and the outside world inspire her as an artist and how to slow down to look at things that most people don’t notice. How does she choose what she paints in her art practice?

They talk about using your left brain vs. right brain and balancing art and your business practice. Hannah goes into depth about how to show the IRS that your art is a business and not a hobby. They discuss how to show a profit motive through your activities and record-keeping—even if your business is not yet generating a profit.

Hannah gives specific information about tracking business expenses and receipts with examples that pertain to creative people. She also discusses how LLCs are legal and not a tax entities. They explore how to prevent tax audits and common deductible expenses, including details about mileage, business meals, donations, etc.

Money Bootcamp is an annual membership for creators to get you set up right and tracking all the right things without wasting your time. You'll have more time for creative pursuits when you stop worrying about your finances and money.

ArtWitch Podcast: Permission to Thrive + Money Mindsets

In this episode artist and tax expert Hannah Cole joins ArtWitch host Zaneta to talk all about money.

Art Witch Podcast with Zaneta

Tax expert and artist Hannah Cole discusses all things money with Art Witch Podcast host Zaneta of Brooklyn, New York. They also talk about mindfulness in this nearly hour-long podcast interview. How did Hannah go from being an artist to also being a tax expert and running a membership program?

Hannah speaks about empowerment for creative people (especially for BIPOC people and women) and they talk about smashing the patriarchy. They discuss issues people have with earning and having money and how to change your attitude. What can you accomplish when you are not trying to run from money issues and fear of the IRS? Taking control of your money and finances will give you the time and space you need to thrive in your creative career. We can shift what we think we're allowed to access, and we can find permission to thrive in our art practices.

What action steps can we take to get control of our money and our taxes? Hear about how to take advantage of the new tax credits from the recent American Rescue Plan stimulus bill that freelancers need to know about. “Involuntary” home schooler parents need to take advantage of the family leave credits. What can you do as a freelancer to prepare for tax season? What is the brand new retroactive change to unemployment tax laws from the stimulus? What advice does Hannah have for people who haven’t filed their taxes yet?

Listen to the interview below! Check out all of Art Witch’s podcast episodes here. Sign up for the free March 30 Masterclass that Hannah mentions in the broadcast here.

Artist/Mother Podcast with Hannah Cole of Sunlight Tax

Interview with Kaylan Buteyn about Hannah’s art journey and financial tips for creative people

Hannah talks with Kaylan about when she started out as an artist, her life as an artist, and how her career progressed to a tax expert specializing in helping artists and other creative freelancers. She talks about her career in accounting and what experiences led to her decision to start her own company.

Other topics covered in this hour-long podcast are the factors involved in choosing a type of business and how getting your finances organized gives you more room for creative work.

Understanding where your money is going and getting your finances organized give you more head space, more time to spend on other things, a clearer vision for your practice. They discuss how women are taught differently about money than men and money shame and breaking down stereotypes. Hannah shares some empowering advice for anyone feeling down. Her mission is to help artists feel more organized and in control of their own money.

Hannah also covers the basics in bookkeeping and profitability to get your business moving forward and how to get into the habit of tracking your finances.

Hannah will be available via zoom on the Artist/Mother network for a live Q&A to answer any lingering questions you have on March 16th, 3:00pm ET.

Click here to listen to the podcast.

The Artist/Mother podcast is created and hosted by Kaylan Buteyn. You can see more of Kaylan’s work on her website or connect with her on Instagram @kaylanbuteyn

How Can Freelancers Benefit from New Tax Laws?

Hannah’s short interview on BPR Radio

Image via StartupStockPhotos on Pixabay

Hannah Cole had an interview with Matt Peiken of Blue Ridge Public Radio in North Carolina last week. She discussed the new tax laws and some of the areas where artists and other freelancers can benefit from them, like sick and family leave credits.

Although she talked to Matt for about an hour, the broadcast only contained a short clip. You can listen to Hannah and read about the tax law changes in her discussion with Matt in the article on the BPR website.

If you missed the live Shuttered Venue Operators Grants webinar mentioned in the article, click here to sign up to get the replay video.

Radio Interview with Hannah

Bonnie Lykes of WPKN radio interviews tax expert and artist Hannah Cole

Photo by Erkan Utu via Pexels

In January, Hannah appeared on WPKN radio in on the What’s Happening New Haven show for an interview with Bonnie Lykes.

Hannah’s half of the interview is geared towards artists who are shy of numbers and self promotion. Hannah offers tax and entrepreneurial insights specifically geared for creative types. She discusses many resources to guide working artists through the realm of income tax.

If you’re interested, the first half of the recording is with astrologer Matthew Kenney. He explains the planetary influences of the past year and reveals better ones for the year ahead.

The Insidious Role of Gender Bias in How Artists Grapple with Personal Finances

Our culture is quick to put down a woman who seeks money or power at the same time that it valorizes the men who do so.

Photo by Karolina Grabowska via Pexels

When I met Dr. Katherine de Vos Devine at a business retreat we bonded immediately. Both I (an artist and tax expert) and de Vos Devine, an intellectual property expert, art historian, and lawyer who works with artists, counsel clients struggling with the same money issues. Though neither of us is a personal finance expert, we address personal finance issues as professionals who help artists manage their businesses. I see artists repeatedly making the same expensive mistakes that could be avoided with some basic knowledge of personal finance. Furthermore, de Vos Devine and I both encounter women artists who lack confidence due to the pressure of harmful art and gender myths about money.

To open up a conversation about these issues, de Vos Devine and I did some research on a new generation of personal finance books. We discussed the myth of an objective set of rules that a previous generation of (mostly male) writers perpetuated, the emotional power of money, and how personal finance education in the US has shifted to address the self-limiting beliefs of women. We also considered the parallels between the disempowering messages that artists receive about money and those that specifically women receive. The conversation has been edited for length and clarity.

Hannah Cole: What made you dive into this type of personal finance research?

Katherine de Vos Devine: I had a very chaotic childhood, even though there was a lot of privilege. As an adult, I realized I knew nothing about personal finance. I was terrified of it, and I did not want my daughter to grow up feeling as disempowered as I did.

…read more…

This article first appeared on Hyperallergic on September 30, 2019.