Tessa Fontaine: BTS on Writing Fiction: Money, Career, and Why Writing Matters

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“The parts that allow me to feel connected to other writers... that’s not a conversation I can have with many people in my life.”

— Tessa Fontaine

This week on the Sunlight Tax Podcast, we go behind the scenes with writer Tessa Fontaine as we explore the realities of building a fiction writing career. We talk about money, publishing, creative community, balancing art with financial stability, and why most authors rely on multiple income streams to keep writing.

We also discuss the deeper purpose of writing—how stories help us make sense of the world, why art matters beyond profit, and what it means to create work that truly connects. Whether you're a writer, artist, or creative entrepreneur, this conversation is an honest look at the intersection of creativity, career, and purpose.

Also mentioned in today’s episode:

00:10 Introduction to Tessa Fontaine's Writing Journey

03:18 The Role of Income and Writing as a Creative Outlet

04:18 The Joy of Reading and Audiobooks for Writers

06:36 Balancing Practical Career and Artistic Spirit

11:36 Building Community and Accountability in Writing

22:34 The Fickleness of Writing Income and Artistic Freedom

27:54 The Incompatibility of Capitalism and Art

36:36 The Gift Economy and the Purpose of Art

46:06 Why Do You Write? Personal Motivations

50:40 Diverse Careers and Income Streams for Writers

54:29 Misunderstandings About the Financial Side of Writing

01:00:02 The Enduring Power of Art and Literature

If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review and share it! Every review makes a difference by telling Apple or Spotify to show the Sunlight Tax podcast to new audiences.

About Tessa Fontaine:

Tessa Fontaine is the author of  THE ELECTRIC WOMAN: A MEMOIR IN DEATH-DEFYING ACTS (FSG 2018), a New York Times Editors' Choice; Barnes & Noble Discover Great New Writers pick, and best book of the year by Southern Living, Refinery29, Amazon Editors', and The New York Post.  

THE RED GROVE (FSG 2024), her debut novel, was named a best book by Amazon Editors’ and People Magazine, and was currently longlisted for the Center for Fiction’s First Novel Prize.

Other writing can be found in Outside, The New York Times, Glamour, AGNI, The Believer, People, LitHub, Creative Nonfiction, and more. Raised outside San Francisco, Tessa is a former professor and has taught in jails and prisons. She co-founded and teaches the Accountability Workshops with writer and pal Annie Hartnett, and lives in Asheville, North Carolina, with her daughter, goofy dog and sassy cat.

Check Out Tessa’s Work:

Tessa’s Website

Accountability Workshops website

Instagram: @accountabilityworkshops 

Episode Links:

Check out my program, Money Bootcamp

Get my Tax Help on Substack

Get your FREE visual guide to tax deductions

Order my book:Taxes for Humans: Simplify Your Taxes and Change the World When You’re Self-Employed

Watch YouTube video version

Transcript:

Tessa Fontaine (02:14)

Thank

you. Thanks, Hannah. Thanks so much for having me. I'm so delighted to get to talk to you here.

Hannah Cole (02:20)

Me too. True confession, all I ever want in life is to talk about books and when I when we met

Tessa Fontaine (02:27)

Ha ha ha.

Hannah Cole (02:28)

at a mutual friends party, I was like, I just wanna corner Tessa at every party and talk about books, which I have actually followed through on sometimes.

Tessa Fontaine (02:37)

Yeah, but it you know, the reason that we got along is 'cause it's all I also want to talk about. I just wanna

Hannah Cole (02:42)

Yeah.

Tessa Fontaine (02:43)

like geek out with people about how good books are. And so that's we're kindred spirits.

Hannah Cole (02:48)

I love it. I also like I remember we had a drink one time and I remember asking you about books and talking about books and realizing that you are reading so much like I get the luxury of reading whatever I like because it's just pleasure for me. And you as a professional writer and coach and editor have so much student work that you have to read that you have less time than I do for like novels.

Tessa Fontaine (03:14)

Yeah, I just had this funny experience actually where someone someone was like, what are the top three books you read that you loved in the last year? And I am reading all the time, but I was like, I don't even know if I've read three books I would say I love. Not because I haven't read three great books, but I just like as you're saying, so much of my time is like reading for blurbs or reading for an event I'm gonna do with someone, or reading student material, or you know, doing an editorial project. And so

It's all great and I love it, but my mind really goes blank in those moments. I still do get to read a lot for pleasure. And actually the thing that my reading pleasure crossover is I'm a huge audiobook fan. And

Hannah Cole (03:51)

Hm.

Tessa Fontaine (03:52)

like at the end of a day, sometimes I'm like, I don't think I can read more. My eyes are too tired. And so I'll listen to a book while I'm like doing the dishes or doing something in the garden or something. And that feels like I can still be swept away with the story without having to sit still or

trained my eyes in and so that's my like little pleasure zone of reading these days.

Hannah Cole (04:12)

I love that. Yeah, that's really cool. audiobooks do feel like a gift to the world. They unlock so much.

Tessa Fontaine (04:17)

Yeah, yeah. Thank you. Thank you, people who've

I know. It's so great.

Hannah Cole (04:21)

Yeah. Like being

able to yes, like pull weeds or wash dishes, pack lunches. It's so good.

Tessa Fontaine (04:27)

I know. While while

someone just t like really beautifully narrates a story to you, like, it's just like it's like childhood dreams coming true. It's the best.

Hannah Cole (04:35)

Kinda

kinda is. Also like the New Yorker fiction podcast is also that is life to me. there

Tessa Fontaine (04:39)

Yes, totally, totally.

Hannah Cole (04:43)

I don't love every story, but sometimes one just hits me so hard I feel like my whole day gets turned on its head.

Tessa Fontaine (04:50)

Yeah,

I'm with you. And that you get to hear what other writers geek out on that you're like hearing you kinda get two different brains in on it 'cause it

Hannah Cole (04:58)

For sure.

Tessa Fontaine (04:58)

it's like a writer who's like, Here's my favorite story.

Hannah Cole (05:01)

I think part of what I love about that so much is exactly that part, like where the writers saying what they were attracted to in the story and pointing out moments they thought were genius. It just helps me appreciate the craft of writing so much. Yeah.

Tessa Fontaine (05:15)

Totally. Yeah.

Hannah Cole (05:17)

I think I would go back to school and try to get an MFA in fiction writing, like just so that I could talk about books all the time if practical reality was not a factor in my life.

Tessa Fontaine (05:28)

Yeah.

It is so fun. Yeah.

Hannah Cole (05:32)

so I wanna kind of sandwich this conversation. Like this is a podcast people come to for practical stuff and the career side of creative life. but I wanna talk about the spirit too. So I wanna ask you actually a practical question up front. I wanna orient people to kind of I mean I read your official bio, but I'm really interested in like

just the facts kind of of like, well you run this coaching group, you have this retreat like what is your kind of writing life career look like? And then maybe talk spirit and then go back to practical. So nuts and

Tessa Fontaine (06:07)

Yeah.

Hannah Cole (06:07)

bolts, spirit, nuts and bolts again.

Tessa Fontaine (06:10)

Great. Yeah. You know what? It's it's funny actually, as you were reading that bio, I was thinking like, this is the bio I send when I'm doing like a literary event, but it's actually not the bio that has my actual larger work life in it really. because

Hannah Cole (06:23)

Mm-hmm.

Tessa Fontaine (06:24)

it doesn't mention what I actually do most of the time, which is writing related, as you say. So so my life so I have done a lot of things, I think as many creative folks have. And I I kind of first went down the academic road and so I was a

professor of creative writing and always honestly knew that that was not the right road for me. I I love teaching, but not really in academia that that traditional undergrad academia wasn't exactly the right fit. And so I left that and so I started real like kind of immediately after leaving that, I started something I had a I had a writing partner, really who she was just a friend, Annie Hartnett. And we had been writing

writing partners really for years and and the way that that started is we both had our first books come out and then we both got really, really, really stuck writing our second books. I think it was a little bit of the Cheryl Crow like the first cut is the deepest. Like we had written our first books and we were both kind of like, well we've said everything there is to say like what how do you write another book? How do you do this? And so she had found this Amy Bender essay.

That was published on Oprah.com, which I recommend to everybody, where she basically talks about, I think it's called the way to get productive is to make rules. And it was about making this kind of contract, this like binding legal contract with another writer friend, where they agreed to certain stipulations, like I'm gonna write a thousand words a day, four days a week. Here, you know, if I'm traveling, here's what I'm gonna do instead. Here's how much reading I'm gonna do. Here are some things I need to remind myself, here are the conditions I'm gonna.

Keep the internet off. I'm gonna have light a candle, whatever. And so they put all these things in this contract. Then when you do it for the day, you just simply tell your writing partner, done, and then they write back check. So you're not ever turning anything into them. You're just sort of saying, I did my contract for the day. Annie and I started doing that years ago with each other. And it really, really, really helped. It really helped to have an accountability partner. It really helped just to have somebody

Who I didn't have to sort of explain all the things to, but I could kind of be in my weird world and then have a little touchstone to the outside with her. And so we started that together. And then that at at one point years in, we were like, What do you think other people would like this? should we try to like invite a few people in and see if we can like make it a business? We you know, we were like artist people were like, we don't have businesses, we don't even know, you know, who has a who has a bank account, right? Anything.

Hannah Cole (08:50)

Yes.

Tessa Fontaine (08:50)

But we're like, okay. And we started

it and that was in 2022. And it has since grown and grown. And so this is really the the center point of my working life is I run accountability workshops. And they are I think we have eight cohorts right now of about 15 people each, and they're folks who want to be finishing their books and want to be working on their projects, and so they meet in individual cohorts.

And then we have a lot of other systems of support around them monthly speakers, book clubs, online cave writing sessions. Everybody makes this contract and does the daily check ins. So this is a big part of my work life right now, of my business life. that came just out of something that I had been doing for myself. So that's a big piece of my puzzle. I also teach in an MFA program now in Warren Wilson's MFA program. and that I like

a lot that is a better fit for me than kind of teaching in traditional undergrad classes. I'm working with older writers who are kind of more serious and more excited and that that that feels really fun. and then I do some kind of editorial work sometimes on the side and I run, as you kind of mentioned, a writers camp every fall, which

has about forty participants and four faculty and two agents and we do it in New Hampshire among the fall leaves and it's like five days of intensive writing time and craft classes and meetings with agents and and faculty and it's so fun dance parties fires it's great. So my working life and then I write. So my working life is very much like lots of puzzle pieces moving together and I'm really grateful for it.

Hannah Cole (10:32)

Yeah. Wow. It does it sounds like a lot, but I the community sounds to me wonderful.

Tessa Fontaine (10:39)

Yeah. Yeah. The community is amazing. I think like I think, you know, this isn't it isn't true for every creative practice that you are alone. But there are a lot of creative practices that you c you kind of do the thing alone. Like I feel really jealous sometimes when I talk to screenwriter friends who are in a writer's room and are like in this kind of collaborative space all the time. But like that's not what I do as a novelist or memoirist or essayist or when I'm writing for the paper and stuff. I I'm I'm like in this little

I don't know, I it just like this little cave. And so the parts that allow me to feel connected to other writers and to I mean, kind of what we were just talking about at the beginning, like geek out on books, like where we're like, my gosh, here's this life-changing thing, here's why it's life-changing. Like, that's not a conversation I can have with many people in my life. Mm, you know, not a lot of people feel that same way. And so it does feel really special to be part of it and to kind of I guess have also helped just create the space for

a lot of folks to get this kind of connection that they didn't have before. It it's felt really great.

Hannah Cole (11:42)

That's beautiful. I mean, you know, honestly, the analogy to visual art is perfect. you know, I I other visual artists mostly make work alone in a studio. And you need a critique group I mean, I think there is objectively kind of more expert work.

But it's also subjective and you don't always see everything that's in your own work and it really does. It is so helpful. Like just that same way that you need to talk about your writing with other writers. You also need to

Tessa Fontaine (12:11)

Mm-hmm.

Hannah Cole (12:12)

analyze and sit with artwork, I think, in a in a group setting and hear the way other people react to it to know if you're getting across what you mean to.

Tessa Fontaine (12:21)

Yeah. Yeah. Totally. And and and so I have also like my own writing group. So I have accountability workshops that I kind of run for a lot of other writers. And then I have my own writing group that is three other writers and I that's maybe,

Hannah Cole (12:33)

no.

Tessa Fontaine (12:33)

you know, similar to the critique group too, where we do exchange full drafts and but even more than really the thing that I think is the most valuable, you know, on top of like exchanging full drafts is we just meet and just talk about

like norm things with each other. It was the first time I ever, I mean, here we are in a creativity and money podcast. So this is perfect. We got we got together and we're like, let's be honest with each other about all of it. Like let's say how much money we got for advances, which I had never happened. I had never encountered anyone being forthright about money or about what your contract was like. There's like this veil of secrecy that I think really benefits the publishers. And I think this is true

Hannah Cole (13:13)

yeah.

Tessa Fontaine (13:14)

in

you know, many areas of of art or the capitalism. and so it was like revelatory just to norm things, to be like, where am I? And, you know, what does this amount of money mean? And what is it, what and what did that amount of money mean for you? And like just the norming

Hannah Cole (13:29)

Yeah.

Tessa Fontaine (13:29)

of that, the openness of it was has been really, really helpful, really great.

Hannah Cole (13:33)

my gosh,

that's awesome. I mean, I I'm also an author, I mean a a baby author, but I I published a book and a work.

Tessa Fontaine (13:40)

Yes.

Hannah Cole (13:41)

So I feel like I get to I get to call myself part of this club a little bit.

Tessa Fontaine (13:44)

Hundred percent. You're not a baby, you're a whole grown up author, Hannah.

Hannah Cole (13:49)

Thank you for that. I but I I do feel absolutely sort of dropped down into a dark forest. Like, here you go, here's your money, here's your timeline, we hope you sell books. And I'm like

Did I do good? Like I just don't even know.

Tessa Fontaine (14:04)

Yeah. Yeah. Totally.

Yeah. And like like w w what were we expecting to happen and did it happen? And should like there's just there's so much yeah, you get these little pieces of information and then they're like and then you just are off in the world and and that's kinda it. It's it's really bizarre. And I think like the people who are selling, you know, a million copies of their book know they're doing well because they have a billboard up of the book. But I think

Basically everyone else is kinda like, what where am I? How how's this going?

Hannah Cole (14:37)

Yeah. Well can I a okay, so I was gonna ask these later, but I'll ask you now. Like, is there a big difference between a first time author deal expectation versus it's your fifth book, you have a track record? Like does it does it really shift?

Tessa Fontaine (14:54)

Kind of in two ways that are sort of oppositional actually. there there often is like people love a debut. People love the story of a first time writer. So there so oftentimes people may get a bigger chunk of money and more attention for their debut, for the sort of promise of the new new talent on the scene. at this but then there's also

the beauty of sort of being an author who has put out a handful of books already. You have a readership built in. You have fans who are excited about your book. and so there can be more to build on at that point. So there's sort of like a, you know, sometimes you get more sort of more attention, more support later on.

Hannah Cole (15:38)

Mm-hmm.

Tessa Fontaine (15:39)

But it also is always so dependent on how your last book sold. So there's always this sort of and I think that's like part of why the first book can

be such a big splash because they don't have any data yet on how well your books are selling. And then later, you know, you you might be beloved, but if you didn't, if your blast book didn't do that well, they're like cr they're putting that into the magical number system behind the scenes where they're figuring out how much money and support to give you.

Hannah Cole (16:07)

That's interesting. You know, Taylor Swift has a line about that. You're only as hot as your last hit, baby. She gets it.

Tessa Fontaine (16:12)

Yes, Tay-Tay, she gets it. She's just one of us. I knew it. Yeah.

Hannah Cole (16:22)

I do imagine if you are Tay Tay that the pressure feels pretty intense when you put out an album.

Tessa Fontaine (16:27)

my god. Yeah, yeah.

Hannah Cole (16:29)

so like I do I do respect that, you know, people people at Olympian levels still do have problems.

Tessa Fontaine (16:35)

Yeah, I do too. I would maybe

like choose those problems over these ones, but yeah. It's real.

Hannah Cole (16:40)

Yeah, I know. People are mad

when you have Mount Olympus problems, but you know.

Tessa Fontaine (16:46)

Yeah, that's right.

Hannah Cole (16:48)

so yeah, I was speaking to this nonfiction book coach who I'm in her like she has a I don't know, an author circle. And she was talking about authors who I just attended like a session she did on writing your second book or you know, second plus, and she

Tessa Fontaine (17:06)

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Hannah Cole (17:08)

was saying that nonfiction

authors, she had just read a study who live entirely off of writing their books have on average like between nine and thirteen books out in the world. That's the point

Tessa Fontaine (17:21)

Mm.

Hannah Cole (17:22)

at which they start living off of the book sales.

Tessa Fontaine (17:25)

Wow.

Hannah Cole (17:27)

I yeah, I that one really kind of got me in the gut. I was like,

Tessa Fontaine (17:32)

a lot of Ucks.

Hannah Cole (17:33)

that whole three year process I just went through that was like felt like much more than a marathon.

maybe more like an Iron Man like that. I have to do that nine to ten times before we start getting But does that

Tessa Fontaine (17:45)

To th to thirteen, yeah. But just go ahead and I

Hannah Cole (17:50)

track that was for nonfiction. I have no idea if that relates. I I have come to learn that nonfiction and fiction are two very different worlds.

Tessa Fontaine (17:57)

They are different worlds and even within nonfiction, there are so many different kinds of nonfiction books. So like a self-help book is a really different beast than a a memoir or a collection of essays. So I'm curious about if that's just nonfiction as a whole or if there's a subgenre within there. But I don't know I have no idea what the n what the number would be if we're tracking it to the average

point at which a a fiction writer could live entirely off of their books. But I I'll just say that I barely know anyone who does it. and

Hannah Cole (18:31)

Hmm.

Tessa Fontaine (18:32)

I know a lot of pretty successful writers. And and there are people who do and there are people who have many books out or who have hit it really, really big really quickly. And there are a couple of people for whom that's true. or people whose books get optioned and made into movies or TV.

And then they get the sort of Hollywood money that comes with it.

but yeah, it's it's hard. And I think the and I guess the one of the reasons that it's hard to like put anything specific on this is like, you know, So say say your friend is like, Hey, I just published a novel. You're like, so great. That could mean anything from someone self-published it on Amazon and is paying for it to come out to

Hannah Cole (19:13)

Mm-hmm.

Tessa Fontaine (19:14)

Going through a vanity press, which means it's an independent press, but you are paying them to put your book out, to going through a small press, which is you are not paying them, but but they're maybe giving you either nothing or $500 or $1,000, and the print run is really small, to being at a major publisher with something like a $10,000 advance, to being at a major publisher with like a million dollar advance or or above. So the range is just it's incomparable, right? Like like someone who's

Putting out a small press book and someone who's putting out a book with a $500,000 advance, the just the difference in the number of books that you're gonna sell in your kind of financial life, like it's just it's such an enormous thing. And as we all know so well, like it does not necessarily track on the genius of your book. It, you know, like there are

Amazing works that come out with tiny presses. There are amazing works that never come out at all. I I have like so many writer friends who have projects that are just still living in their computers. And and there are amazing books that come out and get a ton of money, and really not so amazing books that come out and get a ton of money and you know, all of the things in between. So I guess that's all to say like I that's such an interesting number to know that average for nonfiction. And I

Hannah Cole (20:31)

Is that

Tessa Fontaine (20:32)

have no idea what it is for fiction, but I'll say like even my most successful

fiction writing friends, almost everyone is doing multiple things. Everyone's doing

Hannah Cole (20:42)

Mm-hmm.

Tessa Fontaine (20:43)

a a couple kinds of stuff. And I think part of it is like probably just the like little bit of anxiety a lot of us have that like like what tremendous luck. For me I feel this all the time, like what tremendous luck that I get to make a good portion of my income on writing. It is so incredibly lucky. It is not

Hannah Cole (21:00)

Mm-hmm.

Tessa Fontaine (21:01)

the majority of my income, but it but it, you know, it's a it's a significant portion.

And I'm also so aware of how fickle it is. Like all it would take is for me not to sell the next book, which feels as possible as anything else, for that to go away or for it to, you know, go to a small press or something else. And so I think like and I'm a solo parent and I have a four-year-old and you know own a house and all these things where like I actually don't have I can't have my life ha take have my income go away. It's not a possibility for me.

Hannah Cole (21:30)

Yeah. Yep.

Tessa Fontaine (21:30)

You know, and

this is true for most of us in in, you know, unless we were really smart and married really rich, which I regret every day not doing. But that

Hannah Cole (21:37)

Yeah.

Tessa Fontaine (21:39)

my mom was right. but but like so so having other income streams, in some ways it just like frees up the anxiety, the heart clenching anxiety to be like, actually I can kind of write what I want to write right now.

And

I really, really, really hope that it gets published and I really hope I get a good check that goes along with it, but I will not starve and I will you know, my child will have a roof over her head if that doesn't

Hannah Cole (22:07)

Mm. Wow. You know, writing and visual art are really twins. Like they're that that

Tessa Fontaine (22:12)

Mm.

Hannah Cole (22:12)

is the same story. I fe I feel every bit of that as an as a visual artist. I I actually like made a very conscious decision at a certain point. It was actually the point where I had a baby. I was living in New York City, I had my first of two kids, and you know, shit's expensive.

Tessa Fontaine (22:30)

Yeah.

Hannah Cole (22:30)

everywhere, but in New York very especially.

you know marriage and finance kind of hit the fan. we had a lot of fights over money and so I it was like it was clear the writing on the wall was clear to me I needed to make more money. Like just point blank. That was the issue. So I like went on this journey trying to find another source of income. Like do I triple down on my art career and try to like make this go? And ultimately I just kept coming up with exactly what you just said. Like I could hit it big

for one, two, three, five years. And then it all collapses. And this also

Tessa Fontaine (23:02)

Yeah.

Hannah Cole (23:03)

didn't feel like kind of a a steady foundation to raise a child with. It was not like you can

Tessa Fontaine (23:07)

Mm.

Hannah Cole (23:09)

not have the child anymore. Like it just it was justn't gonna work. I was like, I can't

Tessa Fontaine (23:13)

Yeah.

Hannah Cole (23:13)

do that. So I made a conscious decision to separate, you know, to start sunlight tax and to keep it separate from my art practice. And my art has never been better. I mean, I'm I made

Tessa Fontaine (23:24)

Hmm.

Hannah Cole (23:25)

less of it. Like time is finite.

but you know, the last show that I had in twenty twenty-four, I think, twenty twenty three, I had a show at my gallery and the Tracy Morgan gallery, and it's the best show I've ever put on. It's like the best art I've ever made. And I'm so proud

Tessa Fontaine (23:39)

Mm. Mm.

Hannah Cole (23:42)

of it. And it was partly because like I did not need those pieces to sell. That's why they're

Tessa Fontaine (23:47)

Yeah.

Hannah Cole (23:47)

so good.

Tessa Fontaine (23:49)

Yeah. Yeah. That's right. And it it's such a I I love that story. It's such an interesting paradox that there is it's like it's so lucky and amazing. And I try to remember this part too. It's so lucky and amazing to have a creative career where there is money involved, as in people do sometimes spend money because they believe that your art has a certain value to it. Like I don't

I don't want to say like I only create art and I don't care about money and there's no relationship to selling my books. Like I write books and I hope people read the books and that is transactional and there is money involved, you know? sometimes, not always, but but there also is this thing about being unattached but being not dependent on, not entirely dependent on the sort of income that you're making from it, that yeah, I think it just like it it opens up your

I mean, not to sound so cheese ball, but it kinda like opens up your heart a little bit or opens up something inside you to be able to just kind of be like, what is it that I really want to write and make right now? And like there's all these jokes among writers about like I can't even think of the word romanticy. Everyone's just like, I just should write a romanticy, because you know, the like sexy fantasy books are just like those who the people are writing those are just swimming in it right now, swimming in the money.

And and like, you know, and there's all you know, there's like I get occasional moments where I'm like, maybe I should just take a few months and just bang out some, you know, some commercial book and like I, you know, maybe I will at some point, who knows? But but I also just like really, really value being able to follow my own weird brain down its own weird projects and to feel like, yeah, I really, really hope that this gets to go into the world in a way that my other books have. And

All will not be lost if something else happens.

Hannah Cole (25:37)

Yeah, I really appreciate that. By the way, you did you did get a little weird in the Red Grove, I will say. And I it's that's a compliment. It absolutely is a little weird. And I love it about it.

Tessa Fontaine (25:42)

Yeah. Yeah, it's a little weird. Thank you. Mm-hmm.

Hannah Cole (25:49)

It feels like there's something that feels like free and real and cool about that. It's not predictable.

Tessa Fontaine (25:56)

Yeah, it's a little weird. My my next book is I I think it's like somehow it's weirder. It's weird. It's really weird. And it I mean, I think it's like I hope it feels readable and like has a a wide readership. But it also like I just was rereading it 'cause I'm about to get notes from my agents and I was just like, You are a f you are a funky person, Tessa Fontaine. What are you what is your brain doing here? Who why why

Hannah Cole (26:20)

No.

Tessa Fontaine (26:21)

are the beavers having this conversation? Like what are we do what's happening?

Hannah Cole (26:26)

that makes me really happy.

Tessa Fontaine (26:28)

Okay.

Hannah Cole (26:29)

I've really been thinking about this. Like I think we I previewed for you that this is on my mind, but I'm having a real moment. all my life I have reckoned with this, the spirit of art versus the economics of art. you know, even sunlight tax, though it's meant to be my bread and butter and largely is, like it's still dealing with that.

I deal with it both ways. But

Tessa Fontaine (26:50)

Mm-hmm.

Hannah Cole (26:52)

but this recent, you know, in Asheville that they had this big grant that went out and you know, it's like a government block grant distributed through Mountain Bizworks. And it it forced me so I lost my studio, as you know, and twenty years of work. And the grant forces you to put it into a capitalist lens.

And first

Tessa Fontaine (27:12)

Mm-hmm.

Hannah Cole (27:13)

of all, I didn't qualify on the face of it because my art didn't make enough income. I make my art makes maybe almost enough income, but it really didn't. they told me I should apply anyway, just to be fair to them. but ultimately I still didn't apply for this grant because all the questions are about your capitalist case. And I was like, there isn't one. Like honestly.

They wanted me to show comparative months showing the loss in income that I have because of Hurricane Helene. And like honestly, my numbers don't s tell that story. Like

Tessa Fontaine (27:45)

Yeah.

Hannah Cole (27:45)

my income has always been in art pretty unrelated to my effort and my output. It's like, sometimes I hit it big and I make a great sale. I had in one of, you know, in a recent year I sold twenty-five pieces to a corporate c collection and had like a delicious payday.

Tessa Fontaine (28:00)

Gosh. Yeah.

Hannah Cole (28:02)

And then I'll have three years where it's, you know, close to crickets. Like

Tessa Fontaine (28:06)

Yeah. Yeah.

Hannah Cole (28:07)

Hurricane Helene did not particularly do anything to that dynamic in my art. So basically I found that this like kind of last pot of money is floating down the river without me because

Tessa Fontaine (28:19)

Mm.

Hannah Cole (28:20)

like my art doesn't fit in a capitalist metric. and you know, to lose twenty years of work and just kind of feel

I know this is not true, but in my bad moments I say like it's not valued. and I'm not worthy of getting any money to rebuild. Like it's just it's it's hurt. It's hurt my heart.

Tessa Fontaine (28:39)

Of course it has.

Yeah, of course it has. I mean, it's so awful to have to make the case for why it matter. I mean, it's awful to have to make the case for why it matters at all. But to to to say like the only way to assess it is to find this the the sort of like regular system of money is I mean it like on a much, much tinier scale. It's making me think about like I got

divorced last year and had co-owned a house with my ex-husband and I was buying him out of it. Like I'm so lucky to have the money to be able to do that. And I got denied because my income is not consistent. It's pr it's high enough. It's well high enough, but it it

Hannah Cole (29:23)

Mm-hmm.

Tessa Fontaine (29:23)

isn't exactly consistent year over year because it varies, because, you know, and it doesn't vary by it doesn't go below any any markers of alarm. But it just I think it's like

We are in this incompatibility, which is capitalism and art, and it shows up in so many complicated ways all the time. The example that you're giving is such a devastating version of this. I had this professor in my MFA program who kind of amazingly, given the context, was was always like

Hannah Cole (29:54)

Right.

Tessa Fontaine (29:57)

again, he was teaching in an MFA program, and he was like, We should not be teaching writing or any art.

in school at all because school is a place like you're here and you're paying to be here. So there's necessarily this this financial transaction that's associated

Hannah Cole (30:13)

Mm-hmm.

Tessa Fontaine (30:14)

with it. And so his approach was to say on the first day of class he said, okay, everybody in the class, you have an A. You have an A. Doesn't matter what you do. Like semester closed. If you want to never show up again and never, never be present, fine. I don't care. Art is not transactional in this way. So you have an A, forget about it.

Now, given that the, you know, the financial part is like you're you're not gonna fail out of this class and have a sort of financial consequence, you're gonna get

Hannah Cole (30:42)

Mm-hmm.

Tessa Fontaine (30:42)

a good grade. So given that, what how do you choose to spend your time in this semester? What I and he's like, what I'm gonna do is show up every week and we're gonna, you know, discuss fiction, we're gonna write stories, we're gonna critique it. If you wanna participate that in that solely for the sake of the writing and the stories, wonderful. And if you

Hannah Cole (31:01)

Mm-hmm.

Tessa Fontaine (31:01)

don't want to.

I could care less. Go do anything else that you want. And I thought it

Hannah Cole (31:05)

Yeah.

Tessa Fontaine (31:06)

was so such an interesting reframe. And I mean, I've heard this a lot, like in I mean that, you know, this connects to like sort of higher education and art too, where you're sort of like trying to slam like of course there are hard skills you can learn in visual arts and in writing, there's hard skills. And also there's so much of this that's like esoteric and and really hard to explain or just comes from practice or rhythm or whatever it is. And so I

Like I just think we're always trying to make sense of art and an artistic career in a way that is really hard to track onto like this sort of social systems that we already have in place.

Hannah Cole (31:42)

Yeah.

Yeah. I have multiple thoughts here. Like I think

this very week, like I was in a bit of a dark place because of this. And I I literally had to coach myself, like, well, why is my work valuable? Why does it matter? Why does my last

Tessa Fontaine (31:57)

Mm-hmm.

Hannah Cole (31:57)

20 years matter? which is ridiculous. but I was just I was thinking like I was trying to explain it to my husband. I was like, What tell me your favorite song? Like this a song that like moves your heart.

Like you feel feelings whenever you hear this song. Now tell me how much money that that songwriter made from that song, how much, you know, income they derive from their music. Does it have a relationship to how that song moves you? And like, what's the answer? Of course not. It has no. It's not even a little bit of relation, it's zero relationship. And like

Tessa Fontaine (32:34)

Yeah. Yeah.

Hannah Cole (32:35)

sometimes it's Taylor Swift who moves my heart. And you know what?

Like good job, Taylor, for making money off of it. Like a congratulations.

Tessa Fontaine (32:42)

Yeah.

Hannah Cole (32:43)

I have I have no bad feelings. Like, please. But

Tessa Fontaine (32:46)

Same, same. Great.

Hannah Cole (32:48)

sometimes it's this little indie songwriter busking on the streets of Asheville who I'm sure makes nothing, right? Or very, very close to nothing. And it does not matter. Art is not about we have to eat, we have to put a roof over our children's heads.

But art is about moving the spirit. Art is about connecting to our fundamental humanity. Like

Tessa Fontaine (33:10)

Mm hmm.

Hannah Cole (33:11)

that's its purpose.

Tessa Fontaine (33:12)

Do you do you know the book The Gift by Lewis Hyde?

Hannah Cole (33:17)

not only do I know that book, I s I did

Tessa Fontaine (33:19)

Ha ha.

Hannah Cole (33:20)

a I did like a project where I sent someone a twenty dollar bill in the mail based on his gift circle idea. And and it was like a you know, so you and it was like you have to now send something to somebody else. This is all artists, so someone painted a beautiful painting on the twenty dollar bill and then someone

Tessa Fontaine (33:38)

Mm.

Hannah Cole (33:38)

wrote a poem. So we had this like you know what, I had it all

document it online at some point, but that website is twenty-five years old. Anyway, yes, the gift.

Tessa Fontaine (33:48)

I love that you did that. That's so cool.

Hannah Cole (33:50)

Tell us about the gift. It is an amazing book.

Tessa Fontaine (33:53)

Yeah, it is an amazing book. I mean y maybe you remember it better than I do now. I read it a long time ago, but it comes up in my mind a lot. And and I think so it's sort of about this question of art meeting I mean, kind of art meeting capitalism and and the relationship between money and making things. And

Hannah Cole (34:14)

Mm.

Tessa Fontaine (34:14)

and he from what I remember and correct me or add in here, but what from what I remember, he's kind of like positing

this idea that actually like when you're making something, it should be and is part of a gift economy. It's like this free, it it has to be this sort of free exchange. It has to be this in this kind of world of gift giving. And that unfortunately right now it's in a world that has money associated with it. And, you know, I I think he like calls for this sort of like radical change in how we're considering creative work entirely, which, you know, ha hasn't happened and I don't know if it will, but

Hannah Cole (34:50)

Mm-hmm.

Tessa Fontaine (34:51)

But what

my takeaway from that book was from so many years ago is like, consider this, like when I'm writing something and making something, to consider it as something that I am putting freely out into the world, like this little bird that you're letting go out into the

Hannah Cole (35:05)

Mm-hmm.

Tessa Fontaine (35:05)

world as a gift to be like, how can this connect with other people? How what will other people think about and be moved by? Or, you know, what will they take from it? And that just I think is just like this fundamental reframe of

the purpose of what we're doing and the kind of human connection piece of it that is outside of the money connection piece.

Hannah Cole (35:27)

That's beautiful. I haven't thought about that since I did that project and I needed it. So thank you. I'm gonna go

Tessa Fontaine (35:32)

Mm.

Hannah Cole (35:33)

buy myself a copy if I can't locate one. So

Tessa Fontaine (35:35)

Yes Yes

Hannah Cole (35:38)

right. I've I've thought of it before as a spiritual practice, but I

Tessa Fontaine (35:42)

Mm.

Hannah Cole (35:42)

like the gift because this is another like twisted knot that I have been in since losing my studio and my work. Is like, why do I feel such a need for acknowledgement? Like

Tessa Fontaine (35:57)

Mm.

Hannah Cole (35:57)

I can tell myself my work has meaning and worth, but why do I feel so strongly that I need others to tell me that? But I do. my god, I'm gonna cry. But

Tessa Fontaine (36:06)

Mm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. It's okay.

Hannah Cole (36:11)

it's because it is not like I may make it solo, I may make it in isolation, but it is meant to be received. Like

Tessa Fontaine (36:18)

Yeah, yeah.

Hannah Cole (36:19)

it's not w who who is it who said this? Marcel Duchamp. I think the work of art is completed by the viewer.

Tessa Fontaine (36:25)

Mm, I love that.

Hannah Cole (36:26)

And I think in writing you would say the same if you don't have a reader like it's completed by the reader received.

Tessa Fontaine (36:32)

Yeah.

Well, and at the time when it it's like sort of how I would feel about losing every draft of everything I've ever written, right? Like at the time that all of your work is in the studio, it's still pure potential. It's like all still the potential to connect. Not not the potential like it's the potential to connect. So there's always just like an act of connection, that act of giving that can happen from it. And with the loss of the studio, it like I'm imagining if I lost every draft of everything I've ever written, it's like

that potentiality goes away because the work is gone. And like that, you know, it I don't know, the the the idea of that is so hard to reckon with that like all of this so much of yourself like it it has reached an endpoint and its end point was just with you. And I don't know, that seems I'm sorry. Yeah,

Hannah Cole (37:22)

It's too lonely. It's unbearably lonely.

Tessa Fontaine (37:26)

yeah, that's right. That's right.

Hannah Cole (37:29)

so it makes me want to ask you though, because 'cause really this purpose, like it is that that song that moves you, that that piece of art that you cannot shake out of your brain. It is that novel that like changes your life. But like

Tessa Fontaine (37:44)

Mm.

Hannah Cole (37:44)

do you have a book like that in your life, Tessa?

Tessa Fontaine (37:48)

One that I've read that has moved me in that way. Gosh, yeah.

Hannah Cole (37:51)

Yeah. It could be a small weight.

That was a heavy pressure question. It could be a little weight.

Tessa Fontaine (37:57)

You know,

s so many books really is the answer. So many books. I'll just like I'll I'll say one that came to mind when you asked that, and it's one I haven't actually reread in quite a few years. I think I actually read it when I was in my MFA, and it's it's a book by the writer Michael Undachi, who's a

Canadian Sri Lankan writer. He's best known for The English Patient, which got turned into a movie. But he has this book called Coming Through Slaughter. It's a really brief book. And it is imagining it's it's a novel. It's fiction. And it's imagining the life of this jazz singer or jazz a jazz musician, not singer, a trumpet player, I think, from New Orleans in like, I want to say it was like the twenties-ish. And

the the actual facts known about this trumpet player Buddy Bolden are this he was really young, like 17 or 18. He just sort of showed up out of nowhere. No one knew him or knew anything about him. He just showed up like in in one of the marching music parades and forgetting the name of it. And just showed up in the middle of the parade, started playing and everyone was just like, this is the most amazing musician we've ever heard. It like shook New Orleans.

And there is just there's like there are snippets of documentation about this guy. There is one photo that exists. And so he he was there. He would like new all of New Orleans just like, who is this most amazing musician who's ever been born? He very quickly started to maybe lose his mind a little bit, and then he

Hannah Cole (39:39)

Mm-hmm.

Tessa Fontaine (39:39)

disappeared completely. And that is all we know about like maybe the greatest musician who ever lived, who just appeared so briefly in New Orleans. And so this book by Michael Ondachi.

imagines this entire life around him and sort of like fictionally fills in all the gaps. And and I remember, I mean the writing is incredibly lyric and poetic and it's so interesting. But what I remember so much was like this feeling of the possibility of like, you know, I I had already been writing some nonfiction essays. I had been writing fiction, I'd been writing poetry

And here is this sort of blended moment of kind of taking

Hannah Cole (40:19)

Mm-hmm.

Tessa Fontaine (40:20)

something from real life that we don't know about and lending your imagination to build out the story and doing it in this really beautiful and evocative way. And it just felt so so moving. And here is a book. I mean, when I when I tell people about this book, I have to say, by Michael Andachi, the guy who wrote The English Patient, because that is the that is the book that has money attached to it, right? It was made into a movie. That's how he pay he's legit, he's legit, he's a real writer.

Hannah Cole (40:42)

Yep. He's legit. Yeah.

Tessa Fontaine (40:47)

And this is and this brilliant book is very unknown. Like it is not a book it is not it's hard to find. It's not one of his popular books. And and it but it you know, it was the song that floored me and and has probably very little money attached to it. I don't know, but it doesn't matter. Yeah.

Hannah Cole (41:04)

Fascinating. Interesting. Will you

repeat the name, the title again?

Tessa Fontaine (41:08)

Coming through slaughter. Slaughter is like the name of a town somewhere maybe where he came from or something. Coming through slaughter. Yeah.

Hannah Cole (41:14)

Mm, okay. It

was very evocative though.

Tessa Fontaine (41:18)

Very

evocative, very sort of scary title. But yeah. What about you?

Hannah Cole (41:21)

Yeah. Wow.

Tessa Fontaine (41:22)

What is what is that book for you?

Hannah Cole (41:25)

I've a million, truly a million. I will say that like of late Elizabeth Strout, hardly unknown. though I've met her.

Tessa Fontaine (41:38)

Ooh.

Hannah Cole (41:39)

my my dad runs an author series in Maine, like it's called An Evening with Maine Authors. So I've read I've met and read a lot of Maine authors, and that is how I discovered Elizabeth Strout. But once I started reading her, I was like holy shit, this woman is a

Tessa Fontaine (41:54)

She kills

me. She's a genius, yeah. Yeah.

Hannah Cole (41:57)

She's a genius.

her way of like getting into getting you into somebody else's head, which I think is what like some of our human empathy is attributed to the invention of the novel, because it was really

Tessa Fontaine (42:10)

Mm.

Hannah Cole (42:11)

the first time you could engage that deeply into somebody's interior life. Although I though I've heard that, I actually think if you read letters like old letters between historic figures, like hmm.

say people were writing a lot of deep internal stuff in their letters. So I'm not sure that's true.

Tessa Fontaine (42:28)

Yeah. Yeah. Totally.

Hannah Cole (42:32)

But she's she's incredible. Just the way she describes like the little secrets that spouses keep from each other in a marriage. like the little assumptions you make that are wrong about people. I just love her. Like I

Tessa Fontaine (42:48)

I agree with you. Yeah. Yeah. I I think she I totally. I think she she help she makes us know the people she's writing about who are make believe people so quickly and so deeply and makes us care about them. And really like I I've tried to describe Elizabeth Strout novels to friends and I'm like they're like, Well what happens? And like, I not a lot I don't know. People go for walks and

Hannah Cole (43:16)

I know.

Tessa Fontaine (43:17)

I don't

someone has a cr secret crush. I don't know. You know, there's like not they're not really plot driven and yet feel so I don't know, they feel so I yeah, I agree with you. Also okay, so this means that your dad also knows Lily King. Is this true?

Hannah Cole (43:32)

Yes, yes. She was actually invited to be the author this year, but she was on she's become so popular. Rightfully, holy cow, that book blew

Tessa Fontaine (43:38)

Yeah, yeah.

Hannah Cole (43:39)

my mind. but she's was on tour in Europe at the critical date. So sh I think she may be next year's speaker, possibly. Fingers crossed. Yeah.

Tessa Fontaine (43:47)

Amazing. Yeah, yeah. Cool. Yeah.

Hannah Cole (43:52)

yeah, but she's amazing. I think I don't know. I c you know what? I think we've established that I could probably spend

three hours on this podcast or p potentially three weeks just telling you about all my favorite books.

Tessa Fontaine (44:04)

That would

be a fun series of episodes. Just Hannah talks books.

Hannah Cole (44:09)

I mean, you know, it

is my newsletter like in my newsletter I do actually just my newsletter itself makes me read more because I try to almost every single week have a book recommendation. I feel crushed when I read a book that I didn't like because I don't wanna I don't put up a book that I didn't like.

Tessa Fontaine (44:27)

Mm-hmm.

Hannah Cole (44:28)

I don't wanna do that to an author. They will speak to someone else. It's just not me. but anyway.

Tessa Fontaine (44:32)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm with you.

Yeah.

Hannah Cole (44:35)

So I do talk

about books too to my newsletter.

Tessa Fontaine (44:38)

Great.

Hannah Cole (44:40)

but I love it because then people write me back and they're like, have you read this one? I'm like, and so I get to talk books with anybody who hits the hits reply in my newsletter. I'm talking books.

Tessa Fontaine (44:48)

Yes, yes.

Hannah Cole (44:50)

this is like secretly scratching the edge. so this is sort of a maybe a hard question, but do you have a why? Like a why

With why you write.

Tessa Fontaine (45:02)

Yeah, totally, totally.

Hannah Cole (45:03)

Okay. Can we share?

Tessa Fontaine (45:06)

I f from my eart from the time I was really, really little, like as early as I can remember, I have found it difficult to articulate what I think and what I feel. And like in this context where we're we're you know, we're talking here, like I I don't mean to say that I don't think I can like form a sentence or talk to you, but I find

Having emotional conversations extraordinarily difficult. I just I like nothing for me is externally processed. Everything is really deeply internally processed. And it turns out I figured out really, really early that the way that I can make sense of anything the the best is by writing it out. So something about it's not just that I think about it, but something about having to

put words to the scramble of feelings and thoughts inside me and to articulate them on the page, it helps me understand humans, situations, the world in a such a fundamentally deeper and better way. And like I understood it in this like, you know, being young and like having a lot of traumatic stuff happen. I understood it in this way that like I did it when I was young to be like, I think I need a right to like survive childhood.

And then it turns out that that has just been maybe what I always have to do. Like I have to write to f to make sense of anything that's going on. And so it feels so deeply merged to be with how to like be okay in the world, like how to put all of the things that happen into some

sort of coherence and I don't even mean to like make it into I don't mean like that I make it into a clean story, but like in some way that I that it becomes it becomes a story and so it becomes something I can hold on to. Or or I'm able to get past the first layers of how I was thinking about something and get to something that actually something else that feels truer. there there is a there's a Joan Didion quote from one of her essays where she says, I write

entirely to figure out what I'm thinking. And so that's what it feels like to me. It's like

Hannah Cole (47:22)

Mm.

Tessa Fontaine (47:23)

I don't think I would know my own mind or how to navigate the world without like figuring it out on paper. And the the it's it feels so lucky to me to have found that. It also sometimes feels incredibly vulnerable because, you know, it's this thing that I have such deep attachment to and

feel the need for. And I have been extremely lucky that that has intersected with like a professional life. And also it's really weird to have like, I'm like, here, here's this book that's just me like, you know, surviving surviving life and making sense of these things. And then it's a commercial property that is, you know, then it then then everyone is like, great, let me tell you how much I hate it on Amazon because it arrived with a

ripped book cover, one star, you know, and you're like, but but or whatever it is. And it it's okay. Like I understand this is the nature of putting, you know, anything that you make out into the world. And also

Hannah Cole (48:23)

No.

Tessa Fontaine (48:24)

it is just so it's so inherently vulnerable at the same time, you know.

Hannah Cole (48:30)

I guess. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry

Tessa Fontaine (48:32)

You don't. You know.

Hannah Cole (48:34)

for that one star review. I get it. I get it. yeah.

Tessa Fontaine (48:36)

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know.

Hannah Cole (48:40)

I mean the internet is the worst kind of place to be vulnerable. Writing was already vulnerable. Ugh.

Tessa Fontaine (48:45)

Yeah, yeah, that's right. That's so real.

Hannah Cole (48:49)

so I'm curious if we could shift gears a little bit. though I could talk all day about this part. I'm curious from you just

I maybe like you were talking about sharing honestly with this like writers group that you have and just kind of as a baseline and a little as a compare-contrast because I'm also speaking with a nonfiction author this month on the podcast. So it could you kind of paint what it looks like a writer's career? Like you are one writer and it's lovely to hear how you do it, but also like what's the range? How how do people who are your clients, people who are

Teach with you in your writers' group how how do people kind of put it together and make it work? Like what does a writer's life look like? What's the range?

Tessa Fontaine (49:36)

Are you the financially or in terms of of their jobs

Hannah Cole (49:39)

Well

Tessa Fontaine (49:40)

or what?

Hannah Cole (49:41)

I mean I do mean financially, but I mean a little more career wise. Like are they teaching at a university, teaching in an MFA program? Are they writing for a journal? Are they like I mean of course there are these

Tessa Fontaine (49:54)

Yeah, okay.

Hannah Cole (49:55)

people who write for the New Yorker who are like the best writers on the planet and everybody buys their

Tessa Fontaine (50:00)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Hannah Cole (50:01)

book and I I bet it's nice to be in that position. But like what are what are what are other writers doing?

Tessa Fontaine (50:08)

Yeah. Yeah. I mean the range is extensive. So a lot of writers in that I know are also teaching and the teaching comes in many forms. So some folks are in academia, like you know, teaching at universities. some folks are teaching in there are lots of like literary organizations, literary nonprofits that are offering classes all the time. So some folks are teaching

in places like that. some folks are working regular human jobs. Like like there's this there's this like horror, literary horror writer named Paul Tremblay, who has had I mean, he might be a great case study because I bet he has

Hannah Cole (50:50)

Okay.

Tessa Fontaine (50:51)

had maybe eight books. he's published a lot of books. And

Hannah Cole (50:56)

Yeah.

Tessa Fontaine (50:56)

he's not like, you know, he's not selling books like Stephen King, but he's like a

well respected, well selling r horror writer. And

Hannah Cole (51:03)

Mm-hmm.

Tessa Fontaine (51:04)

and he has been a high school physics teacher all of this time. And and just now, this like last month, he announced that he was gonna step back from teaching physics. And he's yeah, like I think maybe eight books in.

Hannah Cole (51:19)

No.

Tessa Fontaine (51:20)

and so, you know, so there are lots of people who are just working

work and jobs and you know something like being a teacher, it gives you these big chunks of time off when you're not teaching. And so that can be a really great balance for, you know, having sort of more space to write. in in terms of my clients, like the people I'm working with in the accountability workshop, it really ranges. There there are a lot of people who are kind of working full-time regular jobs. There are also a lot of people who do sort of freelance stuff, a lot of people who do like

communications or marketing or publicity or somehow are in kind of like a writing adjacent field. So they're they're like doing some copy. They're writing

Hannah Cole (52:04)

Mm-hmm.

Tessa Fontaine (52:05)

copy as part of their job, but but not like sort of cr creative writing if you are.

I'll be I feel worried for it, like it's actively happening now that like someone came on a couple weeks ago and is like, well, my job is gone to AI and I don't know how to find any other job. So I, you know what I think some of those jobs are in tricky places with AI now. same with friends of mine who are in journalism, the same thing has been happening to them. Not necessarily because of AI, but just with all of the papers and magazines closing, journals closing and stuff. So

Yeah, it's it's a it I think it's a really wide range. I think like as I mentioned before, I don't know many people who are only writing books. I know a couple, like I know Curtis Sittenfeld and she is only writing books, like Huzzah for her and you know, Queen as she should be. She's doing great. but but like yeah, it most people are are doing a lot of stuff.

Hannah Cole (52:58)

Yeah. Yeah. It's hard. It's hard to do that. Man, throw a kid on top. It's crazy. my gosh.

Tessa Fontaine (53:03)

Whew, yeah, yeah. I know it's a it's a busy life. Yeah. I'm ready for a vacation, I'll tell you what.

Hannah Cole (53:12)

Amazing. so I guess this kind of dovetails with that, but like do you feel like there's something that people misunderstand about the financial side of being a writer?

Tessa Fontaine (53:25)

Yes, I think so. I mean and this kind of I actually kind of from both directions. I know a lot of people who sometimes I'll work with who when they're first getting into writing, they'll be like brand new writers really excited about their novel idea and sort of have this idea that like once they finish the book, they'll be able to publish it and a lot of money will be attached to that process. And

It's it's a possibility, it's always a possibility. But you know, it's like i it's it's a really hard it's a really hard road. And I think it's like, you know, it's kind of like if someone had j was a brand new painter and were like, Well, paintings can sell for a lot of money. All I have to do is make this one great painting and I'll just sell it for a million dollars and it's like I that'll be great. What's the big deal? So it's it's like I there's and it's a hard conversation to have 'cause like of course the stories exist of people who are

kind of new writers and write one book and sell you know and make a lot of money. But

Hannah Cole (54:26)

Yeah.

Tessa Fontaine (54:26)

it that is not the common story. That is not what happens most of the time. And so I think like helping people find the joy and the sort of excitement and the passion for the writing itself and like having that be the thing that drives the engine, drives the boat, as opposed to the like kind of fantasy of the payday.

Because that is out of our control. It is unknowable. so that I think that from the starting point. On the flip side, I know so many people who who I think because of the range I was talking about from sort of like self-publishing to where there's no where, you know, you're not making any money, you're paying some money, to like sort of making a lot of money.

There's such a range and and this isn't part of polite conversation. So we don't talk about, you know, when I tell people I'm a writer, I'm not like, I'm a writer at this level, making this amount of money, right? Like it's not, it's not something I'm saying. So there's also a lot of people, most people in my life, I don't actually think I don't think that they think I make any money from writing. like my family, when I was first getting divorced, was like, You're gonna be destitute. You've what are you gonna do without a husband? And

It like, I have made more money than my spouse for every second we've known each other. Like what d did you not think this was like a biz I so what? Very confusing. And you know, we can read all sorts of other things into there, but but I think there's like I mean, I think it's it's both like it's just a it's a it's a career, it's an art form that has such a r like anything, right? Like musicians, like painters, it just has such a range attached to it.

and it is not something to do because you're like, I would love to just make a bunch of money quickly. Like, let me write a book. It's definitely not that. But it's also not something that like all of us are doing. I mean, many of us are doing it just because we love it. And fuck yeah, excuse me. But like, also some people do make money. So I don't know. It's like you know, it both is and isn't part of the sort of working world and

Yeah, it's it's so nuanced.

Hannah Cole (56:42)

So so nuanced, yeah. And I I was thinking about the there's a art supply company called Daniel Smith. I don't even know if they're still in business, but their motto was Vita Brevis Ars Longa, which means life is short, art is long. And

Tessa Fontaine (56:56)

Mm.

Hannah Cole (56:57)

I think about that all the time. It is one of my favorites because that like my my why feels like that. It feels so much more like connected to like rooting down into the like

fundamental building blocks of being a human.

Tessa Fontaine (57:13)

Mm.

Hannah Cole (57:14)

and like sharing with other humans in these like sometimes what you need it for and the purpose of art is actually for these horrible, difficult moments. Sometimes they're for a great party also, like doesn't have to be sad.

Tessa Fontaine (57:28)

Mm-hmm.

Hannah Cole (57:31)

Curtis Sittenfeld's Romantic Comedy was an awesome, super fun, just gratifying book, right?

Tessa Fontaine (57:37)

Yeah, yeah.

Hannah Cole (57:39)

But there's war and peace too. and I feel like I I have tried to explain to people because we live in a town, you know, in Asheville, it is the the artist model here looks very different from the one that I was trained up in in my MFA program and in New York City, which is

Tessa Fontaine (57:54)

Mm-hmm.

Hannah Cole (57:54)

that, you know, artists here open their doors to

tourists and so people are more familiar with the artists who are working here and like even what that looks like and what their studio means because they open their doors. but also the art you make when you're selling to somebody who's stepping into your studio for the first time and making a quick decision that's worth the money for them to buy that art, it's gonna be a lower price point. It's gonna be a much more accessible subject matter. I say with no judgment, like wonderful. Make your living

Tessa Fontaine (58:21)

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Hannah Cole (58:25)

that way.

Hell yeah. but I'm I'm from and I not because I think it's better, it just happens to be the school I went to, but it I feel like this one that's about like trying to live forever. Trying to like climb

Tessa Fontaine (58:40)

Mm. Yeah.

Hannah Cole (58:44)

Mount Olympus and see if like I can shout loud enough from the rooftops with a painting that is that profoundly moving to someone that

Tessa Fontaine (58:52)

Mm.

Hannah Cole (58:52)

When I'm dead it's still living, you know.

Tessa Fontaine (58:55)

Mm-hmm,

mm-hmm. Mm. What a beautiful way to say that.

Hannah Cole (58:58)

Yeah. I mean, I think I think novels do that too. I think it's why writing speaks to me so particularly. it's like the everyday you know, you have to get to a museum. You have to get to a place to see art as I it's much less accessible. But a book is the art that you can see every day. And I do.

Tessa Fontaine (59:15)

It's true. It's true. It's so fun.

Hannah Cole (59:20)

Yeah, it's awesome. Well Tessa, it's just been

Just a personal joy for me to talk to you. Thank you so much and thank you for sharing about like your world, your work. It's awesome. I definitely

Tessa Fontaine (59:31)

Mm.

Hannah Cole (59:32)

encourage everybody to go pick up your novel, The Red Grove, and also your memoir, The Electric Woman. but can you just tell everybody where they can find you?

Tessa Fontaine (59:43)

Yeah, yeah. And Hannah, thank you so much. This is really such an honor to get to talk to you. and sort of I don't know, I think I I always have really interesting conversations with you about about this very thing, like how we figure out how to be artists in a world and both s you know, hold true in our heart what we want to do and also survive as humans who have to feed their children. So I appreciate that holding that space. yes, you I have a website, Tessafontaine.com.

I am on Instagram, the accountability workshops that I was mentioning also on Instagram and we have a website and so is the camp. It's all all there. All there.

Hannah Cole (1:00:20)

I

love it. I love it. I'm coming to that camp one of these years. I have a novel in me

Tessa Fontaine (1:00:23)

Yes, please, yes, please.

Hannah Cole (1:00:27)

and we're gonna talk when I start to write it.

Tessa Fontaine (1:00:29)

I cannot

wait. That'll be the best.

Hannah Cole (1:00:32)

Awesome. Well thanks

for joining us. Thank you for sharing you. It's been delightful. Awesome. All right.

Tessa Fontaine (1:00:36)

Yeah, my pleasure. Okay.

Bye.

My #1 Tip to Make Your Kid a Millionaire

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“One of the most advantageous things that exists in the U.S. tax code is a Roth IRA for a minor.”

— Hannah Cole

In this episode of the Sunlight Tax Podcast, I’m discussing the benefits of tax-advantaged savings for children, specifically focusing on a Roth IRA for kids. I explain how parents can open a custodial Roth IRA for their kids, the advantages of a Roth IRA, and the importance of teaching children about compound interest and financial literacy. 

This episode also emphasizes the long-term benefits of starting early with investments and how this can empower the next generation financially.

Also mentioned in today’s episode:

00:00 Introduction to Tax-Advantaged Savings for Kids

01:50 Understanding Roth IRAs for Minors

05:28 Investment Strategies for Kids' Roth IRAs

09:05 Teaching Kids About Compound Interest

I hope this 3-part series on investing for your kid(s) helps you understand your options. If you missed the first two, here they are:

1. Trump Accounts explainer (if your kid was born in 2025, 2026 or you’re planning for one in 2027 or 2028, please get the FREE $1000 you are entitled to)

2. 529 Plan vs Trump Accounts (you can use both).

If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review and share it!
Every review makes a difference by telling Apple or Spotify to show the Sunlight Tax podcast to new audiences.

Links:

Roth vs Traditional IRA: Does it even matter?

How to fund your IRA: Pay yourself first

Check out my program, Money Bootcamp

Watch YouTube video version

Savings for Kids: Trump Accounts vs. 529 Plans

Listen and Subscribe Here

“The spirit of the 529 plan is towards education and education savings. And the spirit of the Trump account is towards retirement savings, a lifetime nest egg.”

— Hannah Cole

In this episode of the Sunlight Tax Podcast, I explain the key differences between Trump Accounts and 529 Plans, two tax-advantaged savings options designed to help families invest in their children's futures.

You'll learn who qualifies for a Trump Account, how these new custodial investment accounts work, contribution limits, tax considerations, and how they compare to traditional 529 college savings plans. I also break down the advantages and drawbacks of each option, including flexibility, eligible uses, long-term growth potential, and strategies for maximizing tax-efficient wealth building.

Also mentioned in today’s episode:

00:00 Introduction to Trump Accounts and 529 Plans

02:00 What Are Trump Accounts? Eligibility and Benefits

04:50 Pros and Cons of Trump Accounts

09:07 Understanding 529 Plans and Their Benefits

13:01 Transferability and Investment Options in 529 Plans

17:58 Using 529 Funds for Education and Beyond

20:04 Comparing Purpose and Benefits of Both Vehicles

21:03 Final Tips and Strategic Considerations

If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review and share it! Every review makes a difference by telling Apple or Spotify to show the Sunlight Tax podcast to new audiences.

Episode Links:

The Sunlight Tax Podcast EP159: My #1 Tip to Make Your Kid a Millionaire

Get my Tax Help on Substack

Get your FREE visual guide to tax deductions

Order my book: Taxes for Humans: Simplify Your Taxes and Change the World When You’re Self-Employed

Watch YouTube video version

Transcript:

Hannah Cole (00:07)

Hello, beautiful. Happy summer. I wanted to do a follow-up episode this week. following up on last week's episode about Trump accounts, which are a savings vehicle for your kid. I wanted to do a follow-up because I did get some questions about that episode asking me what the difference was between a Trump account and a five twenty-nine plan.

and I think that's a really good question. And there are reasons to use one versus the other, and some places where you might want to use both. So I thought today I would do a little pro and con of Trump accounts versus 529 plans and try to just lay out and make clear for you where one might make more sense than another. The other thing to be clear on is you can absolutely have both. You don't have to choose between them.

the only choice really is if you have a budget limit, you only have limited dollars to allocate, then of course you want to pick the one that works best for you and for your particular needs. So that is the purpose of today's episode that I hope to help you with. Deciding with your limited dollars which one makes more sense for you. But also be aware that even if you do have limited dollars, and especially if you don't, you can use both.

You can use both vehicles. Both things do something good for your kid. Okay. a little note on the name. whatever side of the aisle you are on, I know the name of the Trump account can feel really inflaming. I know this because as I predicted, I got some emails that were so angry just about the name that they missed the point of what the account does and the fact that it is know, a helpful.

savings vehicle for your kid. I do want to credit the idea and try to get away from the inflammatory name because in fact these accounts are vehicles that have been thought through by thoughtful, bipartisan, poverty-hating economists who really wanted to do good for inequities in the US population. Okay, so there is a really good spirit behind this.

and I don't want you to lose sight of that because there's this big label on the account that you don't like. I don't like it myself. Maybe you love it, I don't know. But I just wanna I want us to try to move away from the name and be able to see the facts of the situation, right? Not just get our brains kind of fried because of something we really dislike. Okay. So with that said, let's talk about.

the difference between Trump accounts and 529 plans. That's gonna be my primary focus, but I do also want to point out to you that in the case where you have a kid a minor who earns their own income, then you are allowed to open a Roth IRA on behalf of that kiddo and put into that account up to the Roth limit for the year, the amount

That that no more than the amount that the kid earned or the limit for a Roth IRA for that year, whichever lesser. but it's also a Roth IRA for a kid who earns their own income is a really particularly amazing tax strategy that you can use. It is something I have opened for both of my daughters. When my daughter started babysitting, I was like,

Cha-ching, it's Roth IRA time. And then my other daughter started a little jewelry business and has been doing craft markets and cha-ching. We opened a Roth IRA for her as well. I have an episode about that. I will link to it in the show notes. that's a whole different strategy, but a wonderful one. So want to call your attention to the fact that I'm not really gonna address that today, but

The requirement if you open a Roth IRA for a kid is that they have to actually on their own be earning income. So this typically is not a thing you can do for a baby, right? Unless your baby's modeling, maybe they are. there could be, you know, a baby, a child actor, maybe your baby plays a baby in a movie, gets paid. That baby can have a Roth IRA. But for most of us, we don't have kids earning money until the kid is, you know, capable of doing work. okay.

So I'll link to that Roth IRA for your kid episode in the show notes. It's an awesome strategy. I definitely want you to be aware that it exists. It kind of saves you tax. It's a tax shelter that shelters taxes on the front end and the back end when you put the money in and when you take it out in a kind of amazing way, just because of the nature of kids not earning much income. So check that out. But for now, let's talk Trump accounts versus

529s. Okay. Alright, so just a quick review. And if you want the full review, please see last week's episode on Trump Accounts. But Trump Accounts are a new kind of account. They just became available to actually use in July 2026. So just this month, as I'm recording, they became available to open. So they are now accessible to you. So that's why I put out an episode this month about them. The nature of a Trump account,

It's kind of like an IRA for your kid. The purpose really is for retirement savings to build a nest egg for a child. It's a long-term wealth builder, okay? they're fairly restricted. we'll get into that a little bit, but they're for minors. Anyone under 18 is allowed to have a Trump account opened on their behalf. You as a family member can open one for your kid. You can actually open a Trump account for anyone.

So you could also open one for a friend's kid, right? Maybe you have some financial sophistication and savvy. You listen to the Sunlight Tags podcast, and you have a friend who is, I don't know, a single mom and you know that she could really use a little boost, you could, of course, with her permission, you could open this for her kid. very especially if she is eligible for the seed money that is available to kids.

born in the years twenty twenty five through twenty twenty eight. So if it's a baby. Okay. So Trump accounts are for building long term. Well, functionally they're very much like a traditional IRA, but they're something that you open for a minor. So it's a custodial account. And they build money, they build money through low-cost index investments in the long term.

These are only available to people who have a social security number. Yeah. Okay, so that's the basics. Here are the pros of Trump accounts. There is a bonus chunk of money that kids born between 2025 and 2028 are allowed to have. So if the kid in question was born between January 1st, 2028.

Five and December 31st, 2028. Yes, that's in the future. So maybe if you're pregnant or thinking about having a baby, I hope your ears are perking up because this may apply to you. the US Treasury, if you elect it on your tax return, the US Treasury will put a seed grant of a thousand dollars into that Trump account to get it started for you. So there is free money on the table for kids born between 2025 and 2028.

And you just have to check a box as you elect to open the Trump account on your tax return in order to get that seed money. That's a reason across the board. any kid born in 2025, 26, 27, or 28, get the money, get the free money, right? That that is a wonderful thing. I would definitely recommend you not miss out on that. Now, for kids who are older than that but under 18.

They're still allowed to have a Trump account, but they don't, they're not eligible for that $1,000 extra, which by the way is a not it's a non-taxable gift from the government. It's pretty nice. Okay, so you can still open account. So for these kids, older kids, it's a little less clear-cut if it's better to have a Trump account versus a $529. So pros getting that seed money, that is a big pro.

There is no earned income requirement for a Trump account. So I'm there's also not an earned income requirement for a 529 plan. So neither one has a requirement that the kid themselves earn income. But just to contrast this with the Roth IRA for a minor, if you open a Roth IRA for a minor, you can only do that. You can only put money into one if the kid themselves earns income. Okay. The Trump account does not have that. The kid does not need to earn any income.

in a Trump account as opposed to a 529 plan, an employer can contribute up to $2,500 per year into that kid's account, Trump account. So that is a benefit that the $529 does not provide. there is long-term compounding, right? It's

You know, a low cost, low fee index fund is pretty ideal. It is kind of just what you want to. This is not investment advice, but it's kind of what you want to be putting money in when you are investing for the long term. So for a kid to grow for their entire childhood. so it's restricted what you can put the money in. It has to just be low cost, low-fee index funds. but despite that being true, that's a pretty good vehicle.

Okay, so one con of the Trump accounts is that the withdrawals are taxable.

Right.

There's also a contribution cap. You can only put $5,000 into a Trump account each year. Now, this can be a combination of maybe $2,000 from you, $2,000 from grandma, $1,000 from your mother-in-law, right? That is possible. Multiple donors can add in to a Trump account, but the total donation to that account must not exceed $5,000. That is not including that employer contribution potentially. So if you had that.

you could get even more into that account. the investment options are limited, as I said before, so that's another con. And also if the kid, the beneficiary, withdraws the money before age 59 and a half, it's taxable with a 10% penalty. So very much exactly the same way as a traditional IRA would be.

You are going to pay tax when you withdraw the money after age 59 and a half. You'll pay ordinary income tax on that withdrawal. But if you withdraw the money before age 59 and a half, you'll pay ordinary income tax plus a 10% penalty. Okay. So, and then the last con of a Trump account is that it's non-transferable. So you open a Trump account for one specific individual and it can't go to their sibling.

Right? It can't go to the next generation. And this is a real negative contrast with the 529 plan, which can switch beneficiaries. This I have personally benefited from. I'll tell you in a second, but that could be a big deal. Okay, so let's talk about a 529 plan. First of all, what is it? Well, a 529 plan is an education savings plan. So

What's really important to understand is that the nature and intent of a 529 plan is to give you a tax advantaged account vehicle for growing money for the purpose of education. So the benefits really accrue to you when you use it for the purpose of education. There are some exceptions where you can touch the money otherwise, but the best benefit is when it's put to education. Okay? The Trump account spirit is towards retirement.

So that's actually a different goal altogether. It's more towards long-term growth. And it can be taken out penalty-free for education, a Trump account, but you will pay ordinary income tax on it. Whereas when you withdraw money from a 529 plan for a qualified educational purpose, you don't pay any tax. So you really do have a big savings. It is better. A 529 is definitively better in that sense for that purpose. All right.

The qualified withdrawals, tax-free education withdrawals from a 529 plan are college, K through 12, you know, private school.

tuition and also trade school. I want to highlight that because people I think tend to think of 529 plans as college savings plans. And especially in this day and age with AI really making people think twice about one, the value of college and two, their replaceability in a white collar world by AI. A lot of people are tending to go into the trades right now. So I do want to highlight for you that a 529 savings plan can pay for trade school that is qualified.

Okay. Now, and just a sort of strategy note, so I was mentioning that this transferability, a 529 plan can be transferred to another family member. it can even be transferred between generations. And this is really important, partly because you're saving for college or trade school.

At a moment where you don't know exactly where that kid may or may go to school, and it they might not even go to college at all, right? You don't totally know the future, and you don't know if they'll get a full scholarship, you don't know if they'll pick a more expensive or less expensive school. So you're saving with some invisibility about what amount you're actually gonna use. And so the fact that you could take excess and transfer it to another child who may go to an expensive college, right?

That is really valuable. I will also give you an example from my own life of how that transferability has was worked out really well for me. My partner and I have been saving in 529 plan since my first daughter was born. But I felt the need to go back to school and get retraining you know, to study accounting at a certain point when my daughter was pretty young.

And we had this 529 plan started, and I was allowed to take money from the 529 plan, tax-free, to pay for going back to school. And I cannot tell you how important that was in my life. That is part of the reason that sunlight tax exists, because I was allowed to do that. it would have been a lot harder for me to come up with the funds to go back to school without that pile of money that I had.

squirreled away for this other purpose that I was allowed to use for education. Okay. So transferability in a 529, worth a lot. All right.

Your investment options in the 529 plan are much more flexible. This can be important if you want to do like a target date fund, something where the funds roll from one type of investment to another across your timeline. Those funds do tend to be more expensive. I tend to be kind of a DIY girl when it comes to investments. I do my own choosing because the fact that I put that onus on myself actually saves me so much in fees, it's very worth it. But I understand a lot of people are as not.

Not as deep in the weeds or confident with investing as I am, and I'm I'm no expert, I just don't want to pay fees. and so it does a 529 plan you can definitely use more easily with a wider array of plans, which could be a good thing. The other thing that I really love about a 529 plan is that there is a Roth IRA conversion possibility.

So, like I was saying, the nature of a 529 plan is that you're saving money for a purpose that you know you don't know exactly how much money you will end up needing. And so you could have extra funds, right? We don't want to incentivize people not to save enough. and sometimes saving enough means saving more than you might actually need. So one of the beautiful things, this is a Biden era provision that was written into the code, is that a 529 up to $35,000.

Of unused 529 plan funds can be rolled over to a Roth IRA in that beneficiary's name. So to put some names to this, let's say my daughter, saved in a 529 plan for her college education. Let's say she gets a full scholarship to UNC Chapel Hill, right? And so we don't end up needing as much of that 529 as we thought we would if, say, she got into Duke, right? So

We would be able to take the excess money, take up to $35,000 of what's in that $529 plan and roll it into a Roth IRA for my daughter. Okay, so now that education savings for her can get converted into retirement savings. That's really nice. That's really nice. some cons on the 529 plan.

The uses are limited. It's really meant for education. Also, trade school. So that's a that's a form of education, but college, K through 12, and also trade school. If you use it for a purpose that is not a designated purpose, like a you know, a qualified education expense, you will pay a 10% penalty. Okay. So that's a good thing to know. And also, of course, there's no federal seed money. The federal government does not give you a bonus thousand dollars if your kid happened to be born in that little

four year window, twenty twenty-five, twenty twenty-six, twenty twenty-seven, twenty twenty eight, right?

So those are the major differences between the 529 plan and the Trump account. Remember, the spirit of the 529 plan is towards education and education savings. And the spirit of the Trump account is towards retirement savings, a lifetime nest egg. Okay.

So it is actually important to understand that the spirit altogether is different. and you can put money into both. All right. If your purpose is just

The education fund for your kids, a 529 plan is better. It's objectively better because there is no tax you will pay when you withdraw the money for that purpose, right? However, if your kid was born in that window with the federal seed money, it's worth it to take that money. And you certainly can add additional money up to $5,000 each year if you want to into the Trump account as well. The other thing is that a Trump account, I think it's nice that.

It can be opened by multiple parties. You don't have to be related to this kid to open a 529 plan for them. And anyone can put money in. So that's a nice quality as well. This means effectively you could gift a friend a 529 plan for their kid, right? What a generous thing to do. I think that's pretty awesome. So there are some benefits to that, but you know what? If you're feeling good about your plan using a 529 plan at this point.

It's totally fine to stick with it. All right. I hope that helps you. Please send me your questions. I'd love to know if anything feels unclear or if you have confusion about the law. Please don't yell at me because of the name. I didn't create it. I didn't vote for this guy. It's I really, really don't love when people shoot the messenger. So please remember that I do this for free to educate you. I am working for free. And if I get yelled at too much, I might just stop.

Cause I don't like it. Thanks for that. So, but if you have questions about the law itself, if you feel confused, if you're not sure, should I use this or this? I love that kind of question. I really welcome that. So please, please do let me know if you feel confusion or if you want me to do a follow-up future episode. And don't forget to check out that episode about the Roth IRA for a kid who earns income. Because man is that an amazing secret tax shelter. That is legal and wonderful.

To set up for your kit. All right. Next week we have some really great episodes coming up. I interviewed the writer Tessa Fontaine. she's a fiction writer. She spilled the tea about the writing life, about how fiction writers make a living, what the huge variation is between them. And we really talked a lot about capitalism and the spirit of art.

versus its relationship to money. And I think it's a really awesome episode. I hope you'll enjoy it. Stay tuned for it. All right. I will see you next week, everybody. Bye.

Invest for Your Kids: New Trump Accounts Now Available

Listen and subscribe here

“Compound interest over time is magic. And when you invest for a child, they have the longest possible time horizon.”

— Hannah Cole

In this episode of the Sunlight Tax Podcast, I break down the new Trump Accounts, a custodial savings program for children introduced in 2026. I walk through who qualifies, how these accounts work, how to open one, contribution limits, and the tax rules you need to know.

I also explore the potential advantages and drawbacks of using a Trump Account as part of a long-term savings strategy, how it compares to other options for investing in a child's future, and what families should consider before contributing. Despite the name, these accounts are a good thing.

Also mentioned in today’s episode:

00:10 Introduction to Trump Accounts and Their Purpose

01:28 What is a Trump Account and Its Legislative Background

02:52 Eligibility, Bonus Contributions, and Funding Limits

04:15 How to Open a Trump Account and the Election Process

07:17 Investment Strategies and Allowed Assets in Trump Accounts

09:04 How to Use the Trump Accounts and Withdrawal Rules

11:48 Who Can Open a Trump Account and Additional Flexibility

14:56 Next Steps for Building Wealth

If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review and share it! Every review makes a difference by telling Apple or Spotify to show the Sunlight Tax podcast to new audiences.

Episode Links:

The Sunlight Tax Podcast EP159: My #1 Tip to Make Your Kid a Millionaire

Get my Tax Help on Substack

Get your FREE visual guide to tax deductions

Order my book: Taxes for Humans: Simplify Your Taxes and Change the World When You’re Self-Employed

Watch YouTube video version.

Transcript:

Hannah Cole (00:07)

Hello, I want to come to you today with a big update about Trump accounts. Now, I realize this title is not most people's favorite. I suggest that you try and let go of the title and think about just the concept and what is behind it. To be totally honest, good people, civic-minded.

people who love this country and want to help the working class and middle class have been working on this idea for a long time and I think ultimately sacrificed their own egos and rubbed someone else's ego in order to get a good idea passed in an administration that wanted to put its name on it. So

I do recommend trying to scrub the name from your brain if that is helpful to you to listen better and understand the information. But in my opinion, Trump accounts are actually a good thing. the information available about them is still a little bit vague. And so you will find you may still have questions. but I want to give you the information that is available at least today, and let you know that.

As of July 4th, these accounts now are live. It is now for the first time your something that you can actually access and open if you are eligible, if you have a child who is eligible. So let's talk about what a Trump account is, what it's for, and how you can open one if it is right for you. All right. So what is a Trump account?

Trump accounts are something that was outlined in the large tax bill, the One Big Beautiful Bill Act passed when Trump got into office and the new Republican Congress came into office. So basically they are custodial accounts for a child to encourage long-term growth, long-term wealth building. I'm gonna be honest with you.

This is something I advocate everybody do. It's also something I advocate you do for your child if you have the ability. it's a kind of a thing. Trump accounts have only existed for a week now, but it's a thing, it's a concept I have talked about even on the Sunlight Tax podcast, opening a Roth IRA for your child. I'll link to that episode here. because it's a wonderful thing to invest money for your child.

Especially because one, the habit of long-term wealth building is a healthy habit for anyone. And when you invest for a child on behalf of a child, the timeline is working for you, right? Compound interest over time is magic. And when you invest for a child, they have the longest possible time horizon. So you can really do a lot of good in terms of building financial security for a child.

So that's why it's great. And Trump accounts for that reason are a really good thing. Are they the best available account versus other kinds of accounts that are already available? Time will tell. I'm not sure I'm gonna say yes on that, but are they good? Are they a tool in the toolbox? Yeah, I think so. Okay. So these are newly available accounts as of July 2026, and you can open one now.

I'll get to how to do that in just a minute. But the idea is these are custodial accounts that you open on behalf of a minor. So anybody from age zero up to age 18. Okay. It has to be a person who has a social security number. That is written into the law. In addition, so any any minor at all.

Anyone under age 18 is eligible to have a Trump account opened on their behalf, but there is a special election of bonus money that you can get if that child happens to have been born between January 1st, 2025 and December 31st, 2028. So that's a small subset of the full group who is eligible for a Trump account. This smaller subset can elect to have $1,000.

put into that account as seed money from the US Treasury. This is just free money given to you by the Treasury. Okay, how do you get this? So let's talk about what the limits are for money you can put into a Trump account and then I'll talk about who can open one. So the limits are you can put up to $5,000 per year into a Trump account for each miner.

If you have elected, if you have a minor eligible for that bonus treasury contribution, that treasury contribution does not actually count towards this $5,000. So that little group of people could get potentially $6,000 into their account. If you happen to have an employer, or if you are an employer and you are looking to create an incentive program for employee retention,

Employers are allowed to put an additional $2,500 into a Trump account on behalf of you know an employee's child, and that $2,500 can be excluded from taxable income for that employee. Charities and government entities are also allowed to make contributions to large groups of children.

There are private individuals, Susan and Michael Dell, for example, who have donated large amounts of money to put into Trump accounts. Ray Dalio, I know, has given a lot of money to go into Trump accounts. There's corporations that have done the same. So, you know, these are acts of generosity. and there is money available potentially for, you know.

underprivileged people in the state of Connecticut. It's worth looking if there are any pots of money available to you or your child.

Deposits can begin going into these accounts starting after July 4th, 2026. All right. Now, how do these accounts work? I'm gonna quote you something I read on State Street Financial, because I think it's a pretty good explanation of the vibe of Trump accounts. So this is a quote from State Street. The accounts during the growth period, which is the period prior to the beneficiary turning 18.

Are limited to investing in mutual funds or ETFs that track to a qualified index with at least 90% US company weighting. For example, the SP 500. Do not use leverage and have an annual fee expense below point one percent. Cash and money market funds are not permitted.

That's the end of the quote. The spirit of that is that these are accounts that are invested in low cost index funds without high fees, without fancy financial instruments. Okay. So you do not have flexibility about where this is invested. But in general, a lot of people do invest in S P 500 index funds. Like this is actually a pretty well regarded, well respected way to invest.

It does actually take the decision making away from you. But I honestly think this is a perfectly great way to invest. So the spirit of this ruling is that this is about long-term investing. This is not about fine fancy financial instruments. This is not about short-term gains. This is about money compounding on a long-term timeline, okay? Which is honestly the most secure and stable way to build wealth.

Initially, this money will be held with the US Treasury, and the money can then be rolled over to your preferred financial institution. I will be honest with you, the details on this little detail are pretty vague. So there's not much info beyond what I've told you here, but stay tuned, there is a website, trumpaccounts.gov.

that you can check back for more info. I will tell you, I just read through the Trumpaccounts.gov website. I had read through it about six months ago. Not a lot has changed in those six months. It was it was a little thin then and it remains a little thin now. Okay, so how do you elect? How do you open a Trump account? Well, you can use IRS Form 4547 or you can elect to open the account.

on a tax return. Okay. There is an additional election, additional box that you can check on your tax return if your child is eligible because they were born between 2025 and 2028, you can elect to have that bonus $1,000 from the US Treasury. So you can open the account and elect that bonus money all in the same tax return. This might be something you want to note for your taxes in the next tax return you file.

If you filed on extension this year, if October 15th is your extension due deadline, you can actually do it on your 2025 tax return. I did actually mention that in my kind of tax updates for the 2025 tax season this year. So hopefully some of you manage to open up a Trump account if that was related if you have kids if you had a baby this year. But I'm just reiterating that.

That remains true. So if you haven't filed your 2025 taxes yet, you can open the account and make that bonus money election on your 2025 tax return. No worries though, you can also do it on your 2026 tax return next year. So just maybe put a note in your tax files to make this election if you've got a kiddo.

another piece of information that is a little vague is that once you establish the account, elect to establish this account, the US Treasury will send you further instructions. I in my whole life before Trump came into office, I have never seen such vague tax law. But here we are. Wait for the Treasury to send you further instructions, is what it says.

The Trumpaccounts.gov website does not say much more than that. It says it could be a text, it could be an email, it could be a letter. All of that is a little vague for my taste, but there you go. That's how it works. All right. How can your child use this money? So remember, this is not your money. This is a custodial account for a minor, for your kid.

The child can use that money. It is fully accessible to them once they turn 18. They are not allowed to touch it before age 18. It has to be in there and be growing. Once they withdraw the money, it will be taxed. It basically turns into effectively the same rules as a traditional IRA, except that you can access the money at age 18 for qualified purposes. And those include qualified higher education expenses.

But also a first-time home purchase or for disability. So it's not only good for kids who are planning to go to college, it could also help them buy their first home or if they have a disability. So it's a little bit broader than just for education, which is what a 529 account is for by comparison. If you use it for something other than the designated purpose of the account,

Not only will it be subject to ordinary income tax rates, but also a 10% penalty. All right. After age 59 and a half, the child, the beneficiary, can withdraw the money for any reason whatsoever without penalty. But again, they will pay ordinary income tax rates on that money. Okay, so that's what I've got for you today on Trump accounts. They are

Basically, they are another way to set aside to stash money for a child in your life. I forgot to mention to you that also, this does not only need to be established by the parent. So you can open one for your child, and that's probably the most obvious use case. But a family member, a guardian, or a friend is allowed to open a Trump account for a kid.

So it is actually possible to do this for a friend of yours, right? You know a single mom who you know could use it, but is really, really busy and you just know she'll never get to it. You can in fact open a Trump account with her permission on behalf of those kids. So it's kind of cool in that way. There's a lot of flexibility. There's also a lot of moving parts and a little bit that's still vague, but these accounts are now open and available and especially.

Especially if you have a kid born very recently in 2025 or 2026. And of course, in the future, if you're maybe pregnant or planning to start a family and are gonna have a kid in 2027 or 2028, that's a magical four-year window where those kids in particular get a bonus thousand dollars to be stashed in this account. It's a great

additional tool in the toolbox for building your wealth, building the wealth of your child. It is something real and tangible that you can do. And although I personally find the name distasteful, it's still a good concept. I hope you'll consider it. All right, I

If this episode has been helpful to you, or if you have a friend who's got a kid, especially if they have had a kid in 2025 or early 2026, or maybe they're pregnant, please send them this episode so that they can open a Trump account and especially get that extra bonus money from the US Treasury. Thank you so much for sharing. Thank you for listening. I'll see you next week.

Book Curious? The 7 Stages of Writing A Book

Listen and Subscribe Here

In this episode of the Sunlight Tax Podcast, I break down the 7 stages of writing a nonfiction book and share what I've learned from my own publishing journey. From developing a compelling book proposal and securing a publishing deal to writing, editing, launching, and marketing your book, I walk through the key steps every aspiring author should understand.

We also explore how a nonfiction book can do more than share your ideas. It can help grow your business, establish your authority, attract new opportunities, and strengthen your personal brand. Whether you're thinking about writing your first book or are already deep in the process, this episode offers practical insights into turning your expertise into a book that creates lasting impact.

Also mentioned in today’s episode:

04:56 Housekeeping and Personal Update

08:58 Differences Between Fiction and Nonfiction Publishing

10:52 The Importance of Marketing and Audience Engagement

14:59 Steps After Securing a Book Deal

18:11 Long-term Book Business Planning

19:07 Platform and Audience Building

22:03 Market Research and Audience Targeting

22:50 Financial Aspects of Writing a Book

29:09 Book Promotion and Publicity Tours

32:09 Motivations for Writing a Book

33:04 Creating a Meaningful and Impactful Book

35:00 Reader Engagement and Feedback

If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review and share it! Every review makes a difference by telling Apple or Spotify to show the Sunlight Tax podcast to new audiences.

Episode Links:

Get my Tax Help on Substack

Get your FREE visual guide to tax deductions

Order my book: Taxes for Humans: Simplify Your Taxes and Change the World When You’re Self-Employed

Watch YouTube video version.

Transcript:

Hannah Cole (00:07)

Hello, gorgeous. Happy summer. do you love summer as much as I do? I just love it, love it, love it. I hope you are enjoying the sun, the outdoors, play, maybe a different rhythm. Wherever you are on this planet right now. today I want to switch gears a little bit and start a series about the business of writing a book.

I know a lot of you out there have businesses. I mean, of course you do. That's why you listen to the Sunlight Tax Podcast. And if you've ever been curious what it's like to write a book, what it actually takes, what it does for your business, if it makes you any money, which is a good question, then I want to do a series for you this month to answer some of those questions.

I also really want to hear from you. So if you have been book curious, send me your questions. I am happy to do some episodes that are just me answering listener questions. I am also bringing on a couple of really wonderful guests to bring a broader perspective about the book writing process. So coming up this month, I've got some really exciting guests. One is a book writing coach and an expert in.

nonfiction writing, which is a pretty different beast from fiction. and nonfiction is probably the most potentially beneficial to your business as a way to spread your big idea and bring light to the business that you're running and widen the audience. So that's a really practical, tactical one. And I'm actually doing a session

with this book writing coach, Stacey Ennis, this Thursday. So they're for my Substack subscribers, only. It's free, but you have to be a subscriber to my Substack. So you can do that.

If you go to sunlight tax substack dot com

You can become a subscriber in three seconds by going to sunlighttax.substack.com. and if you're a subscriber, you will get the invitation to join Stacy and I for a fireside chat about the ROI of writing a book, specifically a nonfiction book. So this is not necessarily because you are a writer by training. You may be like me, you may be a tax professional slash artist.

Who does a lot of writing? Of course, you have to be, you know, you have to be a good writer to write a great book, but there's ways to get there. so this session is going to be really fun, really awesome. Stacy is so incredible. I am in her membership, which is called the Author's Influence Circle, where she shares really amazing insights into the publishing industry.

The financial side of running a book, also like the marketing and the pre work, and also just the actual writing process. So she's a real expert. She's written like 20 books herself, ghostwritten more. She's been a New York Times bestseller. So Stacey is really incredible. And I'm super honored that she is going to do a fireside chat with me live that you're welcome to join. So again, you just have to be a subscriber to my Taxes for Human Substack.

in order to get the link to that, and I'm really excited to see you there. Later this month, I will also be interviewing fiction author Tessa Fontaine. she's written a memoir called The Electric Woman, as well as novel called The Red Grove, which I read and loved. and she's working on her next novel right now. So I cannot wait to get that compare-contrast between fiction and nonfiction.

and help all of you aspiring writers out there just figure out if this is a journey you want to take, what it takes, what some strategy around that is. I'm just excited to share it with you. So today I want to give you my first thoughts on writing a book.

Having done it, having been through the Iron Man.

Iron Man, not Marathon, because the Marathon may be writing the book, but then you still have to do the marketing of the book, the the book proposal, shopping the book proposal. Like there's many parts to writing a book. Writing the book itself is the the maybe the easiest part. so that that's a thing to know. All right, so my thoughts today on writing a book. First, I have a little bit of housekeeping for you, and then we're gonna jump into

My thoughts for you on the basics of writing a book, what to know about that process. So, my housekeeping for you is: I am doing a studio fundraiser this summer. If you don't know, I lost my studio completely in Hurricane Helane at the end of 2024. It flooded and destroyed all my work, all my paintings, my new sculptures, all my equipment, all my supplies, gone.

Gone and totaled. and for semi-frustrating reasons, I do not qualify for the local recovery grant because my art did not actually make enough income. And yet I want to rebuild, trying to rebuild. I focus my energy on raising money for other people rather than myself when Hurricane Helene hit. And now I'm actually ready to rebuild because I have finished fundraising for others. I wrote a book.

That was a lot going on. And so, you know, it's been it's been a minute, but most of the money has passed me by. So I am running a DIY recovery grant for myself if you are interested. it's also doubling as a tax education campaign because I can't help being myself as I do this. I know the midterm elections are coming up.

And there's a lot of talk about a wealth tax and a lot of impulse in that direction, which I think is a good impulse, but I think there's a good way and a bad way to do that stuff. So I have an FAQ about how taxes are currently working, how the wealthy really do avoid paying taxes, and how you and I can make a positive difference, what a good policy would look like and what you can do. So

sunlighttax.com/taxtherich is my FAQ page about how to tax the rich in a more fair and equitable way. But it's also a studio fundraiser for me. So I have been hand printing tote bags. And if you buy one tote bag, I will ship it to you and be very grateful. And the money 100% goes to help me rebuild.

or you can be a super supporter and get five, and you can give tote bags to your friends, you can spread the word, and that is extra generous, extra wonderful. So you can do all of that at sunlighttax.com/taxtherich. And the new piece that you may have missed before, I was only selling Tax the Rich tote bags. I realize not everybody wants to carry a tote bag with that message on it. It might feel a little bit too tweaky for you, and that's fine.

I also have tote bags that say human. I really love them. Those are actually the first totes that I printed. They're a little more artistic and they vary one to the next. so if you're interested in a human tote bag, those are also available at the same place, sunlighttax.com/taxtherich. All right. I'm so grateful to you for just helping spread the word about rebuilding my studio.

I'm I'm really grateful. Thank you so much. And to those of you who have bought tote bags, who have spread the word, those super supporters among you, Kurthy, James, Tessa, I see you. I I I love you. I am so grateful to all of you. So thank you, thank you, thank you. All right, let's talk about writing a book. So

The first thing to understand when it comes to writing a book is that there's two different worlds, okay? Writing a fiction book versus writing a nonfiction book, there's a real division in the publishing industry and they are treated differently. So, first, just so you know the difference, in fiction, if you're writing a novel, you have to write the whole novel and then you shop it around. Okay. So you're taking a big risk, although you do get to take whatever time you want to to make it.

Great, right? So you have the ability to write and rewrite and rewrite that book. So it is perfect when you send it out. But you have to do the whole thing and then shop it around. Okay. So it's a huge investment of time up front before you know if you'll even get anything, right? Get a publishing deal at all. Nonfiction is actually quite different. So for nonfiction, your first bit of energy is going to be spent on writing a book.

proposal, you write a book proposal and then you shop that around to publishers and they decide if they want or don't want your proposal. And sometimes they might even request some changes to it. And you do submit two chapters and a table of contents for your book, but you don't actually have to write the whole book in advance. Okay? So the book proposal cons is constituted by basically it's two chapters of the book, a table of contents,

And then a lot of information that is marketing related. if you cannot get yourself excited about doing the marketing part, I would ask you to maybe question writing a book at all because marketing is such a huge part of having a successful book in the world that if you can't prove that you are up to the task, you're not going to get a book deal. Okay.

I think a lot of people think if they make the thing somehow magically it will get out into the world. And this goes for writing books, this goes for vibe coding new software apps. This goes for anything you do. If you don't then broadcast the message into the world, it will sit on your shelves and no one will ever know it exists. So this has been a really hard learning for me as an artist by training, who then started a business and was like, my God, 80% of my time is spent.

on messaging and marketing, only 20% in the making the work itself, the client fulfillment, right? Well the same is true for writing. It may not be what you want to hear, but it's better to know it before you sink an enormous amount of time and energy and then realize that that's only one third of the project. Okay. So yeah, the marketing stuff, it's a big deal. That book proposal is really difficult.

it took me about eight months to write a good book proposal. And that was on a pretty strict deadline. writing every single day. So I'm just gonna tell you that is no small feat. And then actually writing the book itself was much easier.

once I had the book fully outlined and the table of contents and those first two chapters written, I wrote the next chapters in the same amount of time it took me to write the first two, right? So

about twenty chapters in the same time it took me to write the first two.

I think that proves to you that the thinking work, the organizational work of that structuring the book, I think that's the hard part. But you know, writers are different. That may be you and it may not. All right.

So in nonfiction book writing, let me kind of lay out for you as I see it what the stages are. So first, you query agents, right? You get your book idea together, you may have a little bit written, you should definitely have a concept, you should have a rough outline, and you send what are called query letters to book agents, right? People who represent you and then can advocate for you.

And try and get you a book deal, basically shop your book proposal around to major publishers. I don't believe it's critical to have an agent, but I do, I personally have an agent and I found worth its weight in gold. Like absolutely, I could never have gotten the book deal I gotten without my agent. So getting an agent is a big deal, and that's hard. Query letters, they send, they take a long time. And of course, because the game is writing.

The writing in the query letter better be great. And it should show your voice, right? Step number two, you write your book proposal. So the book proposal is, like I said, it's two chapters of your book, it's the table of contents, and then it's marketing material. So it tells you have to do kind of an analysis of books in the market. So what you're gonna do is come up with a bunch of comparative titles, get stats about how those books have done, sort of

that there is an audience for the book that you're writing. You also have to talk about your, you know, you have to give a bio of yourself as an author. And the emphasis should really be all about how you have an audience and how you reach them, how engaged they are, what your channels are of communicating with them. If there is not an audience for your book, there is no book deal. So the audience part is really

Really important. Now, a wonderful, amazing proposal that's hitting just at the right time can get in, can get a great book deal, even without you having a huge following as an author. But you definitely are going to need to know who you are targeting and have a way to be communicating with them. And the more people are engaged with your work, the bigger your audience, and the more engaged, the better your chances.

Next, you're gonna take that book proposal and shop it around to publishers, right? Hopefully, if you have an agent at this point, that is work that your agent does and they'll give you feedback. But this may be a long process, it can take more than a year. but shopping that book proposal around and then negotiating a book deal, that is the next step. Once you get your book deal, and congratulations, celebrate, then you have to write the book. So

That's probably the part that's the clearest to anybody considering writing a book. That is the thing, that is the one thing everybody knows they need to do, right? It's the the other six steps in this seven-step process that you probably feel a little more vague about. after you write the book, then comes

The pre-launch marketing. I'm skipping over editing because I thought editing myself was a little bit was kind of minor, although, you know, it could be really quite a lot of work depending on who you are and what shape your book is in when you submit it. Pre-launch marketing is critically important. It's not just kind of important, it's super important. Your pre-launch sales are a big determiner, first of all, to the publisher of just how many books they're gonna print.

How much effort to put into you, maybe how much marketing dollars to allocate to you as an author versus their other authors, right? So you are proving yourself here with that pre-launch content and your pre-launch activity. You want to have a great pre-launch plan so that you sell as many books as you can before publishing day, because that is your best shot at making a bestseller list, at getting press.

It's a really big deal. By the way, everyone listening who pre-ordered Taxes for Humans, my book. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you again. Now you know how important it was to me. And it really was. You made a big difference. So thank you. okay, and then next there's launch publicity, right? There is a huge amount of marketing and publicity that goes into the launch of the book. You've got

You know, your first window of you know day, week, month is a really big deal, probably the biggest deal of all. But that first four months of book sales is probably the time that your publisher will pay the most attention to you and expect the most sales. And so you are going to be a busy, busy person during that time, and you want to have a great launch plan and publicity plan. And then last and

Not to be forgotten to me is the long tail, the business plan after the hype, that four-month kind of hype period has died down. And it just gets to be like, okay, do you have steady book sales in the background? Do you have a channel set up to have ongoing continuous book sales? Okay. So to me, those are the sort of stages of writing a nonfiction book and getting it out in the world.

And you know, if you do it, it is what I consider to be an intellectual Iron Man, right? and again, I say Iron Man, not marathon, because it's multiple marathons, right? The writing the book itself may be one marathon, but it's nothing compared to the publicity part. It's also maybe nothing compared to writing the book proposal, which is really, really hard,

but it forces you to do that brain work, that thinking work, that

Audience work that is so critical to having a successful book launch. So it's really important and good work that will be valuable for you. All right. Some observations along the way of my personal book journey. Your platform really matters. So when I say platform, that's kind of the industry word. But your platform is, you know, you're following your audience, people who pay attention to what you say, right?

Books are about spreading ideas, but so is on a smaller scale your newsletter list, your email, your Substack, your Instagram following, your LinkedIn, maybe, whatever platform or platforms that you have and how big they are and how engaged they are. So it also matters, not just raw numbers. Like a publisher does not really care how big your newsletter list, how many people are on your email list. What they care about is

How often do you send a newsletter and what are your open rates? In other words, they're digging deeper into that statistic to look at your actual engagement. do people even read your emails? How often? Like to what degree? Right? So that's a really important piece that a publisher is always going to be looking at. And I don't want you to be too scared that you have to be Michelle Obama in order to get a book deal. I most certainly am not.

but I think like having a strong engagement, I think that is where I was able to prove myself. Also, thank you. If you're listening to this podcast right now, you're a part of that. And I'm grateful to you. So it's part of why I wanted to turn around and kind of transparently share with you because I know a lot of you might consider one day writing a book. even if that's several years down the pike. It's a many year process, and you know.

You might want to start percolating on it.

I also want to share that your audience matters. What's your big idea and who is it for, right? I think you need to be crystal clear on who you are serving with this book, who the audience is, and why they want this book, what this book is solving for them, right?

I think also this is a similar, if you're already running a business, if you are already self-employed and running a business, you already hopefully have done some work on who your client is and what problem you're solving for them. A book is really the same. It is a business proposition in that same way, in that you are serving someone. Who is it? Get into the details of their life. What are their demographics? What are their psychographics? What do they care about in this world? How do you connect with them?

That is really important. if you don't know who your audience is, you don't have a book idea. I know that might sound a little bit harsh, but I cannot emphasize enough that how important it is to know who you are writing to.

At the same time, the marketplace of books is something you'll have to do research on. Now you're very unlikely to already know everything about that. I certainly had to look around a whole bunch and do the research, but it's kind of fun. Also, just it's a whole new world. Like, okay, who's writing on this topic? Who's writing for kind of independent-minded, creative people who are self-employed, right?

Who is targeting that audience? What books have been written already in this area? Right? what's my competition? How do I fit into that? What am I saying that no one else is saying? Right. This is these are important questions to think about. Honestly, if you never write a book, thinking about this question for your business is helpful anyway. It's work we all could do and we probably all could do better.

Next, let's just touch on money. Now, I definitely would like to know from you. I'd love your feedback, like how much you want to know about the money side of writing a book. As you know, I love to talk about it and I'm happy to. So send me your questions on Instagram at SunlightTax. or you can send them to me on Substack sunlighttax.substack.com.

Send me your questions about the money side, the ROI side of writing a book. I certainly think it's a good idea to walk into a book writing process with your eyes open about this. the money may not work at all the way you thought it did. I'm happy to demystify that, but I do want to kind of gauge what the interest is before I bleed my heart out onto the podcast with all my numbers. All right. So assure me that that's something you want before I go and, you know.

Go through, comb through all my data. but again, I am happy to. I will tell you, there's a big difference between being a successful multiple book author, the money side of that, versus being a first-time author. Notoriously, the money on your first book is gonna be not as good. And so a first-time book making money is

Pretty unlikely. Now, are there exceptions? Of course, but it's tough. It's tough out there. So my personal opinion here is you really need a plan, right? And you need to follow your plan. All right. So

I think personally the way that money does work, the way that the money side does work out, does pencil out for you when you are running a small business is one, you need to have the capacity to take time away from your business. So consider the opportunity cost. How much time is it going to take you to write a book, to write a book proposal, to shop it around, to write the book, to market the book?

It's gonna be tremendous and it's probably gonna be double the time you think it will be, right? And so how much money will you not be earning as you do those steps, right? That's a big deal. It's something to consider.

Your book deal, your advance, is unlikely to be huge. Of course, people sell their stuff by saying, my gosh, I got a six-figure deal. I will teach you how to get a six-figure deal. Okay, fine. you know, take the classes, study the things, that's all good. But your chances are very low of getting a six-figure book deal, right? Unless you have a massive audience, massive audience, right? And a huge publicity machine behind you.

just the chances of that are very small. So you're probably working with a smaller advance, possibly a very small advance. And so hopefully, you know, you want to kind of budget your time and just be careful, be mindful that that isn't necessarily gonna be enough money to support you, even through the full book writing process, let alone afterwards. Okay. The other thing is that book sales.

I think some people think, probably especially because you see people out there promoting their book, you think, they must be making money from the book. That's what's happening. That's actually usually not what's happening. An author is, especially a first-time author, is generally not making much money from actual book sales. What they're doing is growing their brand awareness, growing their platform, growing their audience, which then grows their business.

Right. So it's sort of like you want to already have a business that's functional. and then a book can help amplify that business, and the functional part hopefully becomes more so, right? You just get more people in the door. for a book sale itself. Generally an author is making about one dollar per book sold. So, you know, you sell a book for $28, you get one dollar.

your costs of the publicity and the marketing are probably way over a dollar. So you may actually be losing money on your book sales. The other thing to understand is that that advance that you get. So if the publisher gives you money, which in theory is meant to give you some time to actually set aside and write the book, that advance, you have to actually earn your advance through book sales.

Before you start getting royalty checks for additional sales of books. Most authors never make that. They never actually, the average first-time author sells about 200 copies of their book. Let that sober you. let that number sit with you for a minute because you really want to be aiming higher, a lot higher than that, if you can, because you know, just.

One, I personally want to reach more than two hundred people. I felt like publicity is important because this idea is important. I care about civics and democracy and people who run ethical businesses being able to run them with more strength and knowledge and actually get more money by not getting in tax trouble and by having smoother systems. This is the problem I wanted to solve in the world, and I don't just want to solve it for 200 people.

I would prefer to solve it for ten thousand, a hundred thousand people. I'm very much still trying to work up to those numbers. I'm not there. But you wanna think about that is what I'm saying.

okay, so I'm happy to dig in a little more if you want onto the money side of this, but definitely send me your questions about finances of a book, especially if you have them, because I want to know if you want to know. So @sunlighttax on Instagram is a great way to just send me a DM.

Let's talk about the publicity tour. I think one of the myths, one of the sort of old ideas of how a book tour works is that you, you know, go on a tour, a physical tour, and you go and do readings at bookstores. This may be part of your plan, part of your strategy. It's certainly a lovely thing to do. I have enjoyed going and doing bookstore events, but I will warn you that they are a tremendous amount of work. They are not as easy to get as you might.

think they are. You might think you can just be like, hey, I'm in the area. I'd like to do, you know, a reading at your bookstore. And the bookstore might say, No thanks. so it's more work than you think it is to do an event at a bookstore. you actually have to sell yourself a little bit to the bookstore and you have to, you know, try to get them sales. they have to do work in order to host an event for you. And they're a bookstore. It's a hard business. They're looking to make some money. So

Help bookstores make money is the answer. I found that the real modern day book tour is on podcasts. So really and truly, podcasts are not the only way, but certainly you've seen a lot of authors get their idea out in little bite-sized nuggets to hopefully entice you into reading their deeper work by going on other people's podcasts as a guest.

I've had authors on my podcast who I want to talk about their big ideas. Ray Madoff Professor Ray Madoff, who I had on last week to talk about taxing the wealthy. she's incredible. And I brought her on because I read her book and thought it was a dynamite. And I'm really excited for you to go read her book because I think it's amazing if you want to know how the wealthy avoid taxes and how we could tax people more fairly. Professor Madoff's book is the bomb.

Highly recommend The Second Estate, How the US Tax Code Built in American Aristocracy. That is the name of her book. And yeah, get it. get it. Not because I'm getting any kind of kickback from that. Get it because I think that book is amazing. That's why I like to have people on. And I think that kind of comes to my last point, which is do it because you want to do it. Do it because you really have an idea that you need to get out in the world. Don't do it to try to make money. Like

Let me put some more nuance on that. By all means make money. I want you to prosper. I want you to grow your wealth. These are good things. But if you want to write a book to just maximize dollars, there's other ways that are faster and easier to do that. A book is not easy at all. Books are about spreading ideas and reaching people and really touching people on a deep level because it's an intimate one-on-one experience to read a book.

To read, you know, you're literally reading the thoughts of another human being. And I think that's kind of incredible. So my strategy personally for writing a book was really not to just sell my stuff at sunlight tax. Like I feel frustrated as a reader when I read a book that I feel is a

basically just a little bit better than a marketing push for somebody's business that's kind of pointing me to a bunch of their paid products and only giving me a taste to get me interested. I get really frustrated when I read a book like that. I don't like that experience as a reader. And for me, I really wanted my book to be incredible. I had a problem I wanted to solve because I have been the person who has needed this book. I wrote the book that is

you know, the tax guide that a freelancer needs to not get into tax trouble, to know what's coming, to build some retirement accounts and set up some wealth building, and to just be able to do your taxes, right? This is not easy information to get, and it frustrated me how hard it was to get. So that's why I wrote my book. And I really, really wanted to write it for the person like me who doesn't always feel seen, right? Someone who is

femme, queer, really, really driven by their ethics in the world and not just dollars, and therefore doesn't always feel seen by like the accounting space where it seems to, you know, I think people in accounting tend to think that everything comes down to dollars and cents. And if you're an artist, if you're a writer, if you are a podcast producer, these things may not be true. You may be so driven by the idea and the

quality of your work, that that really is primary to you. And the dollars come second. That's who I wanted to speak to and help with their money, right? And to me, my very best marketing plan was just writing the best book that could possibly exist in this space. A book where when you read it, you're like, my God, she made a lot of mistakes. She's a real human. Like she's not judging me. She's telling me what a fuck up she's been.

And that she actually became very good at this after being very bad at this. And like, if she can do that, I can probably do that too. And this book is gonna be a bit of a shortcut, so I don't have to do all those horrible things that she had to do, right? That is the book I wanted to be out in the world. I wanted people to feel so seen by it that they would love it and share it with their friends, right? I didn't want a book that the only way I could make sales was to just pour money into a PR firm, right?

so it's my hope that Taxes for Humans is that amazing, amazing book. By the way, nothing makes me happier than getting notes in my inbox or in my DMs and Instagram, saying that somebody is reading my book and feeling that like feeling seen, feeling connected, feeling like, my God, I didn't know it could be easy like this. That lights me up. I think that honestly is half of the payment for my book. And I get it every day and it

It just makes me so happy. And by the way, if you have read my book, please send me a note. Nothing makes me happier than getting those notes from you. So I hope I hope that has been kind of an interesting little behind-the-scenes journey about my own book process and just breaking down the steps of writing a nonfiction book, the difference between a nonfiction and a fiction journey.

I'm really excited this month to bring you more episodes about the book writing process, the ROI, the return on investment of writing a book. And we're also going to speak to a fiction author, Tessa Fontaine so that if you have a novel in you, that we can explore that topic as well. So please, please, please send me your questions about fiction, nonfiction, money. What are the questions that you have about writing a book?

What have you always wondered? this is what I want to talk about in the next month. So bring me the questions at SunlightTax on Instagram or you can ask me a question through Substack. And last thing before we go, on Substack this week, for my Substack subscribers, it's free. I'm offering a fireside chat with book coach Stacy Annis.

multiple, multiple authors. She's written over 20 books. she's a New York Times bestseller. She's an incredibly insightful, thoughtful writer who has really coached a lot of writers to make their best work. So she is amazing and I cannot wait for you to hear her wisdom and bring your questions to that session. It's an hour long. It's at noon this Thursday, July 9th, and I cannot wait to see you there.

you can get an invitation just by joining my Substack, sunlighttax.substack.com. And I'll see you at the fireside chat with Stacey on Thursday. All right. Great to talk to you today. Go out and spread your big idea and share this with your friend who's thinking of writing a book. Take care. Bye.